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 Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 05:05

Battalion detachment
11 Drops

HQ
Archon
-Agoniser
- Phantasm grenade launcher
-Blaster
Total: 76

Haemonculus (Warlord)
-Crucible of malediction
-Electro corrosive wip
-Liquifier
Total: 97

Troops
X2 5 Kabalites
-Blaster
-Pgl
-Venom
266

5 Kabalites
-Blaster
-Agoniser
-Raider
-Dark Lance
-Shock prow
Total: 163
6 Wracks
-Electrocorrosive wip
-X2 Liquifier
-Raider
-Dark lance
-Shock prow
Total: 216

Fast attack
X2 6 Reavers
- X2 Grav talon
Total: 380

Heavy Support
X3 Ravager
-Triple dark lance
Total: 465

Fliers
X2 Voidraven Bomber
-Dark Scythe
Total: 338

Total: 2000 pts

The reaver units will take +1 toughness and +1 attack.
If you've seen any of my lists so far in 8th it's very similar, but I'm doing my best to morph it in to the best TAC list I can make.
The general idea is as the title says, rush to get in to my opponent's face and unload as much firepower as possible, whilst keeping all my units fairly compact to allow them to support each other. The Archon will travel with the 5 man kabalite raider and act as a countercharge unit whilst the Haeme and Wracks will act as a sort of anchor unit whilst providing some nice flamer and countercharge action. The Reavers are a very multipurpose unit, they'll help to safe guard my vehicles from deepstrike assaults, countercharge and help to cull the hordes by working together (they put out a fairly surprising amount of wounds against t3). I gave them the Grav talons because it let's them hurt more elite units for little cost. I'm not sure Agonisers are worth the cost because bladevanes give me strength 4 anyway and let me wound on 3s against T3.


Last edited by Trueborn44 on Wed Jul 05 2017, 06:31; edited 1 time in total
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 05:39

An interesting list. One comment, however. Reavers have Bladevanes as their close combat weapon, which has a fixed strength of 4, meaning a +1 strength drug is entirely useless on them. I'd recommend a +2 Move or the +1 Toughness drug (Both have done wonders for me, but it depends if you want more mobility, or a bullet magnet.)

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 06:26

I actually meant to write +1 toughness originally, I was just up when I posted that so to tired me it seemed fine. I like the toughness and attacks, just because the 19 attacks gives the unit a very good damage output IMO. Though the extra movement is a good shout and something I will probably experiment with.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 06:37

I always find reavers to expensive. So many points!

You actually feel quite light on for infantry killing in my mind. Only 2 venoms, a couple of kabalite units and no missiles on the void ravens. The characters, wracks and reavers pick up some of this slack for sure but when guard field 60-120 conscripts as a buffer as well as a bunch of heavy weapons/artillery you might find yourself short.

The problem I think is that the list is a rewrite at the point you try and add more AI to the mix. Play it as is (if you have the models) and see how it goes!

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 07:03

I was really hesitant on the Reavers as well @massaen, but whenever I thought about taking them out to replace them with something like trueborn with splinter cannons I felt like I was missing out on an entire phase and also because I was worried at how useless they become if their Venoms get charged. That's a problem across all of the units in this list aside from the Reavers and I felt like they could possibly cover up for that weakness. Out of interest, what kinds of units do you take to combat those large blobs of conscripts? Flock spam?
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 07:32

Mostly venom spam - I run 6-8 at 2k typically. Flyers can help as well with the missiles. The main appeal I have is that between the venom double cannon at 18" and the 5 guys inside you put out 16 splinter shots as well as a special weapon.

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 08:10

@massaen I actually did the math on how many men we could kill per turn, the assumption being that you have 8 Venoms within 12 inches of the conscripts and that I have my Venoms within 12 and the Reavers get their charge. If that's the case I put you at about 35 killed and myself 28. If I get the Wracks in to range with their liquifiers that's another 5.25 killed on average which leaves a fairly small difference. I know it's not a perfect scenario as you'll most likely have more survivability and a greater dilution of your firepower from the Venoms, but it gives me hope that I'm not too far off having a good chance against an army like that.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 10:25

At that range yeah, I would expect the gap to drop in effectiveness - I tend to lurk at 18 if I can.

Impressively close mind you!

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 13:51

Not sure how rude that's supposed to come off, but it does come off that way. I am listening to your advice and frankly enjoying the discussion because I felt like I was learning a good bit about how to deal with an army type that I don't see much (hordes) but wanted to be prepared for.

Anyway. I''m well aware you're likely to hang around 18" , I did the 12" because it ups your firepower and considering I'm showing the best of mine it's better to show the best of yours. Do you think it's necessary to bring more than 160 venom shots for enemy infantry in a TAC list and how much does the added 6" range with the second cannon help? It just seems like you're spending a lot of points for the sake of that 6 inches and a small increase in shots to me.


The shorter effective range of my stuff is it's downfall however and as I said earlier, you're probably right that Venoms are the way to go as they're more survivable and the spam let's you spread firepower over a lot of different units so it's difficult to take down. Still it'll be interesting to see how this list fairs against a horde style army and I'll report back when I get the chance to face one.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 17:24

I was being sincere - not rude.

I didn't realise the gap in effective engagement of infantry would be so small despite the disparity in apparent firepower - it was a compliment.

I haven't run the numbers myself but took your reply at face value

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Wed Jul 05 2017, 18:57

Apologies, I thought you meant I was being closed minded which I took to be a bit insulting because I thought we were having a good discussion. I'm guessing this is more an issue of colloquialism than anything else.

Anyways. I've been thinking about it and I think you're definitely on to something with the Venoms, it's quite possible that my Reavers aren't going to make it to their lines at full force if my opponent understands how threatening they can be. I could drop one of the reaver squads and a wrack and pick up another kabalite Venom and a unit of stock Scourges. The other option would be swap the Voidravens for Razorwings and then use the points saved (and maybe the shock prows) to purchase a Blaster each for the reaver unit to make up for the loss of the number or shots on the Scythes. Will definitely have to have a think about it.
Here's the maths if you're interested btw!

160 shots *2/3 to hit *1/2 to wound *2/3 for conscript armour = 35.5555 dead conscripts with 8 double cannon Venoms

I have 24 shots from the Reavers, 36 for the Venoms and 8 from the Kabalite Venom so 68 shots

68*2/3 to hit *1/2 to wound*2/3 for conscript armour = 15.11111 dead conscripts

If both reaver units charge (unhindered) I have 32 attacks
32*2/3 to hit*2/3 to wound*5/6 for armour + 2 mortal wounds from grav talons= 13.85

So after adding those and on average 5.25 wounds from liquifiers we get a total of 34.2 wounds
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Fri Jul 07 2017, 10:09

So, had a bit of a brainwave this morning (I think it is anyway) and came up with a new list. Same general idea, but losing 1 unit of Reavers and the coven units in favour of Incubi for the Archon to ride with and Harlequins and over all a bit more dakka.I'm lazy and hungry at the moment so I don't feel like typing out the maths but at least offensively the Harlequins best the Wracks against conscripts and I'm sure they will against MEQ as well. As far as the remaining pack of Reavers I'd like to give them +1 attack because of the two in the previous list that was the one I preferred, but with the lack of the wrack anchor unit I'm leaning towards +1 toughness. Anyways, to the list!

Battalion detachment

11 drops

HQ
Archon
-Agoniser
- Phantasm grenade launcher
-Blaster
Total: 76

Shadowseer
Total: 134 pts

Elites
4 Incubi
-Venom
Total: 152

Troops
X3 5 Kabalites
-Blaster
-Pgl
-Agoniser
-Venom
411

5 Harlequins
-x5 Embrace
-Starweaver
Total: 204

Fast attack
6 Reavers
- X2 Grav talon
- X2 Blaster
Total: 220

Heavy Support
X3 Ravager
-Triple dark lance
Total: 465

Fliers
X2 Voidraven Bomber
-Dark Scythe
Total: 338

Grand total: 2000


Last edited by Trueborn44 on Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:12; edited 1 time in total
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Dabbarexe
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Fri Jul 07 2017, 10:54

Even if you're running a unit below minimum strength, you still have to pay the minimum point tax. Incubi have a minimum size of 5 which is 90 points. So even if you run 4 you still need to pay the 90.

Harlequins are cool but keep in mind you're now running Ynnari, since you didn't bring them in a separate Detachment. You might want to look at some more aggressive units to complement Soulburst better.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Fri Jul 07 2017, 11:06

@Dabberexe it was clarified in the latest FAQ/ errata thing that you no longer pay the full points cost for understrength units, but the power level stays same. I'm not running Ynnari, I'm running Aeldari. Including Harlequins doesn't change me to Ynnari, it just prevents any benefits I could get for having an entirely Drukhari force, which as of now their aren't any.

Edited to clarify the FAQ thing.
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Dabbarexe
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Fri Jul 07 2017, 17:59

I really should keep up with this FAQs. Thanks for the heads up.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Venom and Raider rush 2000pt Battalion   Fri Jul 07 2017, 21:35

No problem man. Any other thoughts on the list? I'm feeling quite happy with it right now. I kinda wish I had another dark lance or two, rather than such a reliance on Blaster fire. I feel like I'm being picky at this point though.
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