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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:10

Problem is, that any "lord" character without invul will just die... And 5+ of Drazhar is... well... meh... Give me SF Archon anyday. Very Happy

Heh - ninjaed.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:18

@aurynn wrote:
Problem is, that any "lord" character without invul will just die... And 5+ of Drazhar is... well... meh... Give me SF Archon anyday. Very Happy

On a related note, I was actually wondering recently whether I'd prefer a 4++ or a Shadowfield on an Archon. Given that he's a bit more resilient now, I was considering whether the 4++ might actually be preferable. I guess it probably depends what's shooting at him. Razz

Drazhar's 5++ is admittedly less than ideal, but at least he might get his 2+ save in some form this edition.

@aurynn wrote:
Heh - ninjaed.

Hey, we're DE - it's what we do. pirat
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:54

I prefer Urien's 4++ rerollable. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:57

@aurynn wrote:
I prefer Urien's 4++ rerollable. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

I prefer that too. I just wish it wasn't attached to Urien. Wink
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 20:11

Srsly? On a model hat gives +1 T to your two Tantali between which he stands proudly, which makes him practically untargettable, unchargeable and that 4++ rerollable is there to just to shrug off any non-mortal wound the enemy might throw at him? Nonono... let Urien be Urien and let Archons be selfish and fearful. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 20:40

As for your "Incubus Lord", I would call him "Incubus Hierarch" (mentioned in the fluff) and give him a straight 2+ save.

I would also give him a "Marked for Death" rule that lets you choose 1 enemy unit during deployment and all Incubi within 6" reroll failed wounds of 1. Or something like that.

Just my 2 cents

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Tue Jul 11 2017, 04:33

Well I think Drazhar needs a little bit of a boost ... Only thing that sets him apart from a klaivex (they have the same number of attacks and and he has a slightly better statline t and str 4 instead of 3) is his 5++, a name and his aura + murderous assualt. Also there are more then just the one Incubi shrines ... so it wouldn't be that unbelievable to have an unnamed incubus hq, Drahzar is just thought to be a fallen Phoenix Lord's armor that is either autonomous or completely in control of whoever is wearing it
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Wed Jul 12 2017, 12:24

@Archon_91 wrote:
Well I think Drazhar needs a little bit of a boost ... Only thing that sets him apart from a klaivex (they have the same number of attacks and and he has a slightly better statline t and str 4 instead of 3) is his 5++, a name and his aura + murderous assualt. Also there are more then just the one Incubi shrines ... so it wouldn't be that unbelievable to have an unnamed incubus hq, Drahzar is just thought to be a fallen Phoenix Lord's armor that is either autonomous or completely in control of whoever is wearing it

Yeah, I think Drazhar could really do with getting buffed a bit. There needs to be more of a gap between him and a Klaivex.

For a start, why does he only have 5 wounds when every other Phoenix Lord has 6?

Also, why does he only get the standard Klaivex weapon, whilst virtually every other Phoenix Lord has at least one weapon that's better than the standard version?

Also also, why does he have the sane number of attack as an ordinary Klaivex? The other Phoenix Lords have at least one extra attack - sometimes as many as 3 (not including special rules and such). Yet Drazhar has no more attacks than a Kalivex.

Finally, the other Phoenix Lords all either have the ability of their corresponding Exarch or an improved version of that ability, yet Drazhar lacks the Klaivex's ability to inflict extra damage on wound rolls of 6+.


Anyway, that aside, does anyone want to have a go at making Vect?
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Wed Jul 12 2017, 17:00

Incubi: Mv:7", WS3+, BS3+, S3, T3, W1, A3, Ld8, Sv3+
Klaivex:Mv:7", WS3+, BS3+, S3, T3, W2, A4, Ld8, Sv3+
Unit Comp: 2 Incubi, 1 Klaivex.  All models are equipped with a Klaive.
Klaive: Melee, S+2, AP-3, D1
Demiklaive (single): Melee, S+3, AP-3, D2
Demiklaive (double): Melee, S+1, AP-3, D1. A model equipped with Demiklaives may make 2 extra Attacks per Fight Phase if using this profile.
Power from Pain
Blades of Khaine (or similar): If an Incubi makes a roll of 6+ to Wound, the attack is counted as dealing 1 additional point of Damage.
Parry: During a Fight Phase in which the Klaivex is targetted, after your opponent rolls to Hit, but before they roll to Wound, roll a D6 for every Attack that successfully Hit the Incubi Unit.  On a roll of 6+, these Attacks are discounted.

Incubi Shrine Hierarch: Mv8", WS2+, BS2+, S3, T3, W5, A5, Ld9, Sv2+
1 model.  An Incubi Shrine Heirarch is equipped with Demiklaives.
Demiklaive (single): Melee, S+3, AP-3, D2
Demiklaive (double): Melee, S+1, AP-3, D1. A model equipped with Demiklaives may make 2 extra Attacks per Fight Phase if using this profile.
Power from Pain
Blades of Khaine (or similar): If an Incubi Shrine Heirarch makes a roll of 6+ to Wound, the attack is counted as dealing 2 additional points of Damage.
Parry: During a Fight Phase in which an Incubi Shrine Hisrarch is targetted, after your opponent rolls to Hit, but before they roll to Wound, roll a D6 for every Attack that successfully Hit the Incubi Shrine Hierarch.  On a roll of 5+, these Attacks are discounted.
In the Name of Khaine: All Faction Keyword Incubi within 6" of this Unit may reroll 1's to Hit or Wound during the Fight Phase.


Drazhar: Mv8", WS2+, BS2+, S4, T4, W6, A6, Ld9, Sv2+
1 model.  Drazhar is equipped with Demiklaives.
Demiklaive (single): Melee, S+3, AP-3, D2
Demiklaive (double): Melee, S+1, AP-3, D1. A model equipped with Demiklaives may make 2 extra Attacks per Fight Phase if using this profile.
Power from Pain
Blades of Khaine (or similar): If Drazhar makes a roll of 6+ to Wound, the attack is counted as dealing 2 additional points of Damage.
Parry: During a Fight Phase in which Drazhar is targetted, after your opponent rolls to Hit, but before they roll to Wound, roll a D6 for every Attack that successfully Hit Drazhar.  On a roll of 4+, these Attacks are discounted.
Riposte: For every Attack that Drazhar Parries, Drazhar may make 1 Attack against the Unit that was Parried.  These Attack do not benefit from the Blades of Khaine or Murderous Assault Abilities.
Murderous Assault: Any time Drazhar rolls a 6+ to Hit During the Fight Phase, he may immediately make another Attack with the same profile.
In the Name of Khaine: All Faction Keyword Incubi Units within 6" of this Unit may reroll 1's to Hit or Wound during the Fight Phase.
Fallen Phoenix: All Faction Keyword Incubi Units within 6" of Drazhar may add 1 to their rolls to Wound.

Points Costs:
Incubi: 14 points per model. 3 to 10 in a Unit.
Incubi Shrine Heirarch: 60 Points per model.  1 in a Unit.
Drazhar: 130 Points per model.  1 in a Unit.  Unique.

Klaive: 6 Points.
Demiklaives: 10 Points.


Some RAI things.
Parry is intended to give greater survivability and give the squishy Incubi a chance against charging CC units as they have no Overwatch or shooting.
The Shrine Heirarch gets it as similar defence, but buffed a touch.  It's effectively a CC-only Invuln that goes before Armour and can catch Mortal Wounds.
Drazhar gets it as a means of making him both survivable, and Killy.

Riposte lets him go into Horde fights without being scared

Blades of Khaine is intended to stack with Drazhar's +1 to Wound buff.  Giving Incubi some viability against multi Wound models.

The Aura buffs are good buffs, but as they can only effect a tiny pool of units, I wouldn't expect overtly broken shenanigans.

Incubi hit at S5, giving them good odds against MEQ and 5+ to Wound against Tanks.  With that buff, I'm thinking they should be dropped to 2 Attacks and Klaivex to 3.

Drazhar should not benefit from the 2 Extra Attacks from the Demiklaive's Dual profile on his ripostes.

Drazhar is now a Melee kill oboe, potentially able to put out as many attacks as an Incubi squad on his lonesome.

Murderous Assault as I've written can technically generate infinite Attacks.  I'm pretty sure that wasn't planned.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Wed Jul 12 2017, 17:11

I'd consider making the regular Demiklaive S+2, since weapons that effectively double their user's strength tend to have a -1 penalty to hit.

Maybe just have Drazhar's as +3S?

With regard to Parry, I'm wondering if it might be better to do it slightly differently - e.g. by forcing rerolls (so basic parry forces your opponent to reroll to-hit rolls of 6+, the Hierarch forces rerolls of 5+ and Drazhar forces reroll of 4+). I'm just wondering if this would be a bit more streamlined. Probably not as powerful though, so maybe not.


One question though - have you removed Drazhar's invulnerable save? Also, am I right in thinking that the Hierarch also lacks an invulnerable save?
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Wed Jul 12 2017, 17:28

If I make the Demiklaive (single) S+2, then its distinction from a regular Klaive is reduced to an extra point of Damage. Not what I wanted. S+2 AP-4??
I did consider making it -1 to hit rolls, as that gets cancelled turn 3, and a nearby Heirarch or Drazhar can partially negate it with rerolls of 1. But these artfully constructed weapons hailed by the ancient order of Incubi as the perfect instrument of murder should not be giving penalties to their wielders.

Also they should be bloody scary in close combat. It is the only thing Incubi can do since Tormentors and Bloodstones were removed.


Onto Parry.
The funny thing is that I originally wrote it with the exact rerolls mechanic you have suggested.

Then I wanted to give Drazhar Parry-Riposte combos. And the wording just became a tangled mess, the likes of which have not been seen since the days of "this ranger can generate an infinite number of attacks in any combat round" from D&D 3rd ed.

The Parry rule (post rewrite) was meant to function as an Invuln replacement.

If we go to rerolls, I'd give Drazhar a 4++ and the Hierarch a 5++.

Cheers for the feedback.

Thoughts on Attack volumes?
I want to say it's a bit high, but then there are Purestrain Genestealers, which can dish out 40 S4 AP-1 WS3+ Attacks that become AP-4 on a 6+ to Wound. For 180 points. And have 8" move, a Deepstrike equivalent, a 5+ Invuln and Toughness 4 on top of that. 18 ppm.


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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Wed Jul 12 2017, 20:11

Can a mod move this to the rules development area?

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MingyuOng
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 20 2017, 17:39

I am a new player who misread the thread and thought the scourge archon was a raal thing. God damn I was excited lol
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 20 2017, 18:01

@MingyuOng wrote:
I am a new player who misread the thread and thought the scourge archon was a raal thing. God damn I was excited lol

We all feel this way Sad

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