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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 10:43

It is fluffy tho

I remember one, the Archon that made the Tantalus used Reaver Jetbikes, and he actually died on a Reaver Jetbike.

And we all know of Sathonyx as well.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 10:58

What if our HQs had these options:

Archon: Wings or Skyboard
Succubus: Skyboard or Jetbike
Haemonculus: Wings maybe? Or perhaps some sort of enhanced levitation unit (functionally the same, just different flavour)?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:10

Its rather it be

Archon: Skyboard, Jetbike
Succubus: Skyboard, Wings
Haemonculus: Wings

Fits the fluff from what i've read (sense we know Archons have Jetbikes and Skyboards)

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:17

We also know Archons can have Wings (Andy Chambers Path of... series).

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:22

Hmm Archon, just give him all of them!

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:37

Might make up for his rather lackluster special ability.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 11:39

Yeah... i think GW put to much into the Court for him

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 22:03

Honestly I think what happened is they set a deadline for 8th to happen and had codecies in the making, that's why there are 10 coming out in quick succession ... But the couldn't finish them all for a grand 8th ed release and rushed through the index's to get every army up to 8th edition so there wouldn't be unusable 6th and 7th edition codecies floating around literally invalidating entire armies. And leading to the lackluster special rules on hqs and such.

However, I would love for the our hq's to have access to stuff like wings, skyboards, and jetbike as it would let them keep up with the transportation without having to buy another transport for just the HQ ... I agree they put to much into the Court of the archon treating each of them almost like an hq for the army (like they were in seventh) ... Another thing I would love is for the archon and succubus to have access to venom blades again ... I always put those on them in 5th and miss being able to ... I have many a fond memory of my archon (with a clone field) running at a Hive tyrant holding his venom blades aloft and laughing about it a turn (two combat phases) later as the soul is sucked into the Soul-stone giving the archon the power of the Hive tyrant and he runs off to do the same to other large monsters.
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Thu Jul 06 2017, 23:36

yeah our hq has been pretty flavorless since 5th codex. not really good at anything. we need options for them to be able to use with different types of units as complimentary
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Fri Jul 07 2017, 07:09

@Shredder

So lets see... MANDRAKE KING:

M8 WS2+ BS2+ S5 T4 W5 A5 LD8, Sv7+/4++, 32-40mm base

Deathblast: Assault D3 S5, all wounds inflicted are mortal wounds.

Shadowshard Blade: S-User, AP-2, D2 (any characters hit by this weapon must substract -1 from their hit rolls until the beginning of their next Fight phase - cumulative with Shrouded From Sight) - tactical challenge for him to either charge or strike first and make him go after the big guys.

From Out The Shadows: As Mandrakes
Move Through Shadows: Instead of movement he and max 1 unit of Mandrakes within 6'' may move anywhere on the board as long as they end up fully within cover and/or in assault with an enemy unit that is fully within cover. If moved into combat in this manner, neither the King or the Mandrakes moved with him can shoot and overwatch cannot be fired against them. This can also be used to move out of combat and does not count as Falling Back for the purposes of the available actions of the units moved in this manner. If moved outside of combat, the unit may shoot and charge as normal.

Lord of the Shadows: Mandrake King does not take up any slots in a FOC and cannot be used to fill any Mandatory slots. He cannot be a Warlord. You can also take max. 2 units of Mandrakes with him outside FOC. Mandrakes taken in this way do not take up any slots in FOC.

Shrouded From Sight: As mandrakes
Deeper Shadows: His Mandrake invulnerable save and invulnerable save of Mandrakes within 6'' is improved by 1.

Thats it. He would be a great tactical and troll HQ and provide some more functionality to our very expensive Mandrakes. Cost... probably well over 100.

Role: Troll the objective campers, Devastators, Flamer squads, etc.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Sat Jul 08 2017, 02:02

I like the set up for the Mandrake's lord aurynn, would it be possible to let him be an HQ that takes up an FOC slot just with "this character cannot be your armies warlord" in it's description ? That way you can still get CP out of a vanguard detachment with him and mandrakes.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Sat Jul 08 2017, 12:56

He'd get more expensive and that is undesirable with a relatively squishy character. We can't have everything. Very Happy I'd really keep him like this. It may not be supercompetitive, but it'd certainly be fun. Very Happy
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Sat Jul 08 2017, 13:58

Think about this, the Skarbrand FAQ basically said that if a "Flier" cant fallback but is force to stay in CC it is destroyed.

So a Succubus with a Skyboard or a Jetbike in theory could charge a flier, roll off for "No Escape" fail the No Escape and crash Twisted Evil

I now want Succubus on skyboard/bike more than every now!

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Sat Jul 08 2017, 14:34

@amishprn86 wrote:
Think about this, the Skarbrand FAQ basically said that if a "Flier" cant fallback but is force to stay in CC it is destroyed.

So a Succubus with a Skyboard or a Jetbike in theory could charge a flier, roll off for "No Escape" fail the No Escape and crash  Twisted Evil

I now want Succubus on skyboard/bike more than every now!

"No escape" only works against infantry.
That would have been a lot of fun.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Sat Jul 08 2017, 14:39

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Think about this, the Skarbrand FAQ basically said that if a "Flier" cant fallback but is force to stay in CC it is destroyed.

So a Succubus with a Skyboard or a Jetbike in theory could charge a flier, roll off for "No Escape" fail the No Escape and crash  Twisted Evil

I now want Succubus on skyboard/bike more than every now!

"No escape" only works against infantry.
That would have been a lot of fun.

Oh snap.. Tho i still want her on bike/skyboard,

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 16:50

@aurynn wrote:
@Shredder

So lets see... MANDRAKE KING:

Spoiler:
 

Thats it. He would be a great tactical and troll HQ and provide some more functionality to our very expensive Mandrakes. Cost... probably well over 100.

Role: Troll the objective campers, Devastators, Flamer squads, etc.

Thanks, aurynn, it's useful to get the full picture regarding what you'd like from a Mandrake HQ.  Smile

I've got a couple of questions:

- Would it be better to not give Deathblast a Strength score and just make all hits Mortal Wounds? I ask simply because Mortal Wounds usually don't require a to-wound roll.

- Is the bonus from his Shrouded from Sight rule already included in his profile or not?



Anyway, I thought I'd post the revised version of mine by means of comparison:

Mandrake Lord (130pts)
Mv:8", WS2+, BS:2+, S:5, T:3, W:5, A:5, Ld:9, Sv: 7+ (4++)

Shadowfire: Pistol 3 18" S5 AP-3 D1 (Each 6+ to wound causes a Mortal Wound)
Twilight Blade: Melee S User AP-1 D1 (Each 6+ to wound with this weapon causes a Mortal wound.)

The Mandrake Lord may purchase wings for 10pts. If he does, his speed becomes 14" and he gains the Fly rule.

Power From Pain (See DE Introduction)

From out of the Shadows (as the Mandrake rule)

Hired to Kill (For each Dark Eldar HQ in your army you may include a single Mandrake Lord. A Mandrake Lord may never be chosen as your warlord.)

A Shadow in the Darkness (Your opponent must subtract 1 from the hit rolls of any attacks that target this unit. In addition, the Mandrake Lord has a 4+ invulnerable save.)

Perfect Hunter (The Mandrake Lord may reroll to-hit rolls of 1 against Characters. Mandrake units within 6" may reroll failed to-wound rolls.)

Into the Night (At the end of any movement phase, the Mandrake Lord and a single unit of Mandrakes within 3" may be removed from the board and immediately redeployed as if arriving via From out of the Shadows. If a unit of Mandrakes is redeployed in this manner, it must be placed within 3" of the Mandrake Lord. Units that redeploy with this rule that were within 1" of an enemy do not count as having fallen back.)

Life Stealer (Once per turn, at the end of any phase in which the Mandrake Lord caused at least one wound, you may choose one of the following effects:
- The Mandrake Lord regains 1d3 wounds.
- The Mandrake Lord may shoot as if it was the shooting phase. If he is within 1" of an enemy unit, he must target that unit.



Changes:
- Added point cost for him and his wings.
- Give him S5
- Gave him 5 Attacks base (replacing the +1A from his melee weapon)
- His ranged weapon is now a pistol.
- Added a teleport move for him and a nearby unit of Mandrakes.
- Added a rule preventing him from being your warlord.
- Various ability tweaks and some name changes.
- EDIT: Cost upped to 130pts, as recommended by aurynn.
- EDIT #2: Weakened his melee ability slightly and reduced his shooting attack from 4 shots to 3.

I'm wondering whether Life Stealer should have the option to either move or teleport as per Into the Night (but without the ability to take other Mandrakes with him and perhaps a more limited range). I'm also wondering whether Into the Night should have a maximum range - e.g. no model can end up more than 18" from its original location.


Last edited by The Shredder on Wed Jul 12 2017, 12:07; edited 2 times in total
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:34

Shouldn´t that be under rules development?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:35

@CptMetal wrote:
Shouldn´t that be under rules development?

Probably. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:40

That said I wish we would have more HQ options.
Wings for Archons, Bikes and Boards for Succubi, Incubbus Lords (without any ride) and mandrake kings (with deep strike and stuff. Maybe allow a unit to deep strike 6 or seven inches close to an enemy).
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:45

How do you see Incubus Lords looking in terms of stats/abilities?
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:52

@Shredder
I believe like 130 pts will be appropriate for your version. He is no slouch. I'd take him over 140pts Visarch.

I hate abilities that disregard game mechanics. Bad enough that MWs disregard both saves. I won't add to it by disregarding wound roll. Thats bad game design IMO. Why come up with a rule and then means not to use it?

Shrouded from sight and Deeper Shadows - yes. Included. All bonuses are included. I won't make him 3++. He is no Lelith or Solitaire.

EDIT: There is only one Incubus Lord and we have his stats.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 17:55

We have Drazhar already, i would make the Archon have a ability to take an upgrade called "Incubi Warsuit" (like in 5th) and in doing so Incubi have the "court of Archon" rule, and the Archon gets 3+ armor and Demiklaives.

BAM! perfect Archon/Incubi Lord. The Upgrade cost 45pts.


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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 18:07

@aurynn wrote:
@Shredder
I believe like 130 pts will be appropriate for your version. He is no slouch. I'd take him over 140pts Visarch.

To be fair, the Visarch isn't exactly well regarded in the first place. Wink

But yeah, I'm happy for him to be 130pts.

@aurynn wrote:

I hate abilities that disregard game mechanics. Bad enough that MWs disregard both saves. I won't add to it by disregarding wound roll. Thats bad game design IMO. Why come up with a rule and then means not to use it?

That's the thing though - Mortal Wounds do disregard the to-wound roll. "Do not make a wound roll or saving throw."

If you want yours to be different, fair enough. I just thought I'd ask since it seemed a little odd.

@aurynn wrote:

Shrouded from sight and Deeper Shadows - yes. Included. All bonuses are included. I won't make him 3++. He is no Lelith or Solitaire.

Yeah, I think that's wise. Especially with the penalty to hit.

@aurynn wrote:
EDIT: There is only one Incubus Lord and we have his stats.

How about an Incubus Baron? Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 18:15

@The Shredder wrote:
How do you see Incubus Lords looking in terms of stats/abilities?

Give him the abilities of a klaivex but amplify them. Like on a to wound roll of 5+ doing 3 damage. More attacks, sure. Like 6 (Archon already got 5).
Or perhaps 5 attacks but "murderous onslaught(sic): add 2 his attacks the turn he attacks" and "Aura of the incubbi shrine: incubbi units in 6 inches may re-roll failed to-wound rolls."

That makes him tough as nails and quite useful for synergy. Makes a klaivex better too.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: DE HQ options discussion   Mon Jul 10 2017, 19:09

@CptMetal wrote:
@The Shredder wrote:
How do you see Incubus Lords looking in terms of stats/abilities?

Give him the abilities of a klaivex but amplify them. Like on a to wound roll of 5+ doing 3 damage. More attacks, sure. Like 6 (Archon already got 5).
Or perhaps 5 attacks but "murderous onslaught(sic): add 2 his attacks the turn he attacks" and "Aura of the incubbi shrine: incubbi units in 6 inches may re-roll failed to-wound rolls."

That makes him tough as nails and quite useful for synergy. Makes a klaivex better too.

Out of interest, are you thinking that he'll have an invulnerable save of some sort, or will he just have his 3+ armour for protection?

With regard to attacks, one annoyance I've just noticed is that Drazhar himself only has 4. If we made an Incubi HQ, I think Drazhar would have to get an extra attack or two (to give us some leeway between his attacks and the 3 attacks of an Klaivex).

That aside, I like the idea. It'd be nice to see stuff like Incubi and Mandrakes get some representation in terms of generic HQs.

All we need now is a Beastmaster HQ. Very Happy


Anyone got any other ideas for HQs they'd like to see?
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