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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Liquifier Gun   Tue Jul 04 2017, 01:08

I have found myself looking at the humble liquifier gun and wondering if its worth it now. It seems like its gotten better because of core rule changes. It now wounds T5 on 5+ and the -d3 ap is nice since marines are getting an average of only a 5+ against it. I'm considering 2 units of 5 wracks with 2 liquifier guns in each inside a raider. Thoughts?
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TheBaconPope
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Tue Jul 04 2017, 01:19

At the end of the day, you're spending 13 points for strength 3 weapon. I'd rather spend an extra two for a blaster.

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kiblams
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 11:49

I have had a lot of luck with liquifiers, you are generally praying for 5s to wound, but if you roll well for AP; those 5s are devastating!
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 11:51

My views on the liquifier are unchanged from 7e. It's still overpriced and unreliable.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 15:48

Unless you have a reroll to wound with Doom or a chronos or something. I find them to be lackluster. And when you do have something to complement them, then you're paying an even higher tax to field them.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 16:03

I would say to keep them in mind for list tailoring (i feel some success can be had against the Stealth Suits spams), but for a blind match it feels too random.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 16:04

On grots they might be worth it because you are replacing the flesh gaunt (which is generally worse than the cleaver vs. all but big bugs) and only have to pay the difference, though I think even that is probably not worth it.

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 16:10

My index says that you may only replace the monstruous cleaver. scratch Which almost looks like trolling.

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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 16:46

im seeing folks running 2x5 wrack squad in a single raider with 4 liquifiers.

other options, grots talos haemy.

what about running a lot of taloi with twin liquifiers and not be pretty stressed out to get them in combat?

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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 17:34

Mppqlmd wrote:
My index says that you may only replace the monstruous cleaver. scratch  Which almost looks like trolling.

Doh, oh well it wasn't a good idea any way

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Gorefather
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 17:56

I've found good use for them on Grots and the Talos surprisingly enough. The biggest weakness of the Talos is that it's slow (compared to everything else moving 14" lol), being able to advance and maybe get in range of the auto hitting twin liquifiers and assault stinger pod makes it a fairly mobile weapons platform.

Grotesques are really expensive anyway, so paying a bit more for a few extra wounds, as long as you use the Grots to target big creatures since they lose an attack and a point of AP.

On anything else they seem way too expensive to be useful.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 20:09

I agree, the best platform for Liquefier is definitly Taloi. Taloi need an Assault weapon to run every turn. Also, you don't care about the -1 modifier due to running, since it's autohit.
But it's a 8 inch weapon on our slowest model...
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 20:28

On the one hand, it's probably better than it was in 7th (the AP is going to do something and it's not wounding T5 on 6s). At the same time, template weapons in general have become a lot less useful - with the removal of templates and AP now doubling as Ignores Cover. Also, in an edition when a plasmagun costs 7pts, 13pts seems an awful lot to pay for this weapon.
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Gorefather
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 20:42

To be fair, plasma is also not as amazing as it used to be. It's still deadly to GEQ models, but since it's much weaker against MEQ models and really bad against TEQ units, I imagine its popularity will start to drop.

Template weapons aren't as good in general, but their strength comes from being changed to assault weapons so they can advance and shoot. Marines can't take advantage of that without losing their bolters, but a unit/model with only assault weapons gains a LOT with that change.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 22:04

Gorefather wrote:
To be fair, plasma is also not as amazing as it used to be. It's still deadly to GEQ models, but since it's much weaker against MEQ models and really bad against TEQ units, I imagine its popularity will start to drop.

Are you kidding?

This is probably the best plasma has been in ages. Rapid firing S8 AP-3 D2 is absolutely devastating. And there are a plethora of ways to reroll 1s (making them far less dangerous even when overcharging).

In terms of being weaker against MEQ, it still wounds them on 3s if you don't overcharge (or 2s if you do), and they only get a 6+ save. Given that plasma has halved in cost I'm completely fine with this.

Against MEQ it's fantastic. S8 means it wounds them on 2s, their 5+ is irrelevant because they invariably have a 5++ (or better) anyway, and D2 completely cancels the extra wound they got in this edition.

Gorefather wrote:
Template weapons aren't as good in general, but their strength comes from being changed to assault weapons so they can advance and shoot. Marines can't take advantage of that without losing their bolters, but a unit/model with only assault weapons gains a LOT with that change.

Given that Advancing is just +1d6" and we don't even have Fleet amymore to reroll it, it seems a niche ability at best. Even more so when you consider that everything we have that can take a Liquifier Gun is an assault unit - and by Advancing you're preventing yourself from charging afterwards.
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 22:26

Agreed. Assault weapons were extra special because your could assault with them. Now you have that little movement speed boost, that prevents you from charging if you use it.
In other words, assault weapons are weapons that are not designed to assault. This is bugging me super hard.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 22:32

Mppqlmd wrote:
Agreed. Assault weapons were extra special because your could assault with them. Now you have that little movement speed boost, that prevents you from charging if you use it.
In other words, assault weapons are weapons that are not designed to assault. This is bugging me super hard.

I also find it a bit weird that you can fire an assault weapon after Advancing but not a Pistol. Neutral

"Phew, that was a hard march. I'll need to take a breather before I have the energy to lift and fire this tiny pistol. Better just stick with the flamethrower until I've had a chance to catch my breath."
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 22:38

And it would have been the case if they kept pistols as a subtype of assault weaponry.
But at least i'm happy with the unique use they found for pistols. For rapidfire, heavy and assault, the differences feel so thin...
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 23:39

The Shredder wrote:
Gorefather wrote:
To be fair, plasma is also not as amazing as it used to be. It's still deadly to GEQ models, but since it's much weaker against MEQ models and really bad against TEQ units, I imagine its popularity will start to drop.



Against MEQ TEQ it's fantastic. S8 means it wounds them on 2s, their 5+ is irrelevant because they invariably have a 5++ (or better) anyway, and D2 completely cancels the extra wound they got in this edition.

Fixed that for you. Unless you were talking about Primaris or something
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Wed Jul 05 2017, 23:52

The Shredder wrote:
Gorefather wrote:
To be fair, plasma is also not as amazing as it used to be. It's still deadly to GEQ models, but since it's much weaker against MEQ models and really bad against TEQ units, I imagine its popularity will start to drop.

Are you kidding?

This is probably the best plasma has been in ages. Rapid firing S8 AP-3 D2 is absolutely devastating. And there are a plethora of ways to reroll 1s (making them far less dangerous even when overcharging).

In terms of being weaker against MEQ, it still wounds them on 3s if you don't overcharge (or 2s if you do), and they only get a 6+ save. Given that plasma has halved in cost I'm completely fine with this.

Against MEQ it's fantastic. S8 means it wounds them on 2s, their 5+ is irrelevant because they invariably have a 5++ (or better) anyway, and D2 completely cancels the extra wound they got in this edition.

Gorefather wrote:
Template weapons aren't as good in general, but their strength comes from being changed to assault weapons so they can advance and shoot. Marines can't take advantage of that without losing their bolters, but a unit/model with only assault weapons gains a LOT with that change.

Given that Advancing is just +1d6" and we don't even have Fleet amymore to reroll it, it seems a niche ability at best. Even more so when you consider that everything we have that can take a Liquifier Gun is an assault unit - and by Advancing you're preventing yourself from charging afterwards.

we get the reroll in pfp t2
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doriii
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Thu Jul 06 2017, 00:17

Bibitybopitybacon wrote:
I have found myself looking at the humble liquifier gun and wondering if its worth it now. It seems like its gotten better because of core rule changes. It now wounds T5 on 5+ and the -d3 ap is nice since marines are getting an average of only a 5+ against it. I'm considering 2 units of 5 wracks with 2 liquifier guns in each inside a raider. Thoughts?

well, 15 wracks can have 6 liquifiers
and 5 grots will have 5, with no big blade so only wounding on 4's and useless against vehicles

they are the same wounds and only 2 pts between if you give the acothysts agonizers.

2 taloi with twin liq and twin haywire will be a little more

i really want to play these lists next time. mass flamers Very Happy
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Thu Jul 06 2017, 10:00

Barrywise wrote:
The Shredder wrote:
Gorefather wrote:
To be fair, plasma is also not as amazing as it used to be. It's still deadly to GEQ models, but since it's much weaker against MEQ models and really bad against TEQ units, I imagine its popularity will start to drop.



Against MEQ TEQ it's fantastic. S8 means it wounds them on 2s, their 5+ is irrelevant because they invariably have a 5++ (or better) anyway, and D2 completely cancels the extra wound they got in this edition.

Fixed that for you. Unless you were talking about Primaris or something

Ah, yes. I did indeed mean to say TEQ there, cheers.

doriii wrote:
we get the reroll in pfp t2

That's true. I still think it's niche though.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:24

Liquifier needs to be half the points at least for what it does and at such short range.
When compared to other options like the plasma gun. Rolling Eyes
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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:25

Painjunky wrote:
Liquifier needs to be half the points at least for what it does and at such short range.
When compared to other options like the plasma gun. Rolling Eyes
Either that, or become poisoned. But it's unlikely to happen Sad
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Liquifier Gun   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:35

I'd like to see it go back to being S4.

They could also make the AP-1d6.
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