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 Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000

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Akaiyou
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PostSubject: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Mon Jul 03 2017, 04:45

Battalion Detachment - 3cp
HQ 2-3

1 Eldrad Ulthran - 180

1 Warlock Conclave - 132
Singing Spear x3
Conceal/Reveal
Embolden/Horrify

Troops 3-6
10 Guardian Defenders - 80

10 Guardian Defenders - 80

10 Guardian Defenders - 80

HEAVY SUPPORT
01 Falcon - 206
Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon
Crystal Targeting Matrix

01 Falcon - 206
Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon
Crystal Targeting Matrix

01 Falcon - 206
Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon
Crystal Targeting Matrix

Flyers
01 Crimson Hunter Exarch - 243
Starcannons x2

Transport
01 Wave Serpent - 149
Twin Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon

01 Wave Serpent - 149
Twin Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon

1 Wave Serpent - 143
Twin Shuriken Cannon
Shuriken Cannon

1 Wave Serpent - 143
Twin Shuriken Cannon
Shuriken Cannon

Total Roster = 1997
Power Level = 110

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Mon Jul 03 2017, 05:30

I have to say I think this is not a great list - sorry!

Anything with even a small degree of armour (T7, 3+ saves) laughs at it at range - and serpents are always better than falcons.

Moving and shooting without penalty is cute but you need multi damage weapons to kill those bigger targets - so you need bright lances and missiles on vehicles if you are not running Wraith stuff or fire dragons.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Mon Jul 03 2017, 15:44

Crimson Hunter and Falcons both have anti AT weaponry.

Perhaps your scope of play is too small minded? Weight of fire takes down things just as often.

An army where all you bring is anti vehicle weaponry is a prime target for a horde army (guard, ork) to crush with ease as you'd never be able to deal with their numbers.

Not to say my list is great but your comment seems quite laughable the idea that 'even a small degree of armour' would ruin my day is nothing short of a joke, after playing as many 8th ed games as I have. Horde is king. Vehicles are tough. Multidamage is only relevant against multiwounds. More attacks > a few strong shots. That's why a unit of 30 ork boyz wreck anything they touch.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 03:52

The hunter is generally a terrible plane compared to the hemlock and is woefully inefficient in general.

The falcons AT capacity is also very low. While volume of fire is very important it's not the answer to T7/8 3+ targets. It takes around 90 shuriken Cannon shots to kill a 11-12 wound T7, 3+ save target. When the guard bring 5-7 of these plus 150+ infantry lets see how you go

You asked for feedback and I gave it - don't like it? No probs - but you don't need to be unpleasant about it. Calling me small minded and my opinion is a joke shows me that you wanted people to bow down and applaud your super list. No probs, I won't bother to reply to you again

post edited. SC

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 07:24

@Massaen wrote:
The hunter is generally a terrible plane compared to the hemlock and is woefully inefficient in general.

The falcons AT capacity is also very low. While volume of fire is very important it's not the answer to T7/8 3+ targets. It takes around 90 shuriken Cannon shots to kill a 11-12 wound T7, 3+ save target. When the guard bring 5-7 of these plus 150+ infantry lets see how you go

You asked for feedback and I gave it - don't like it? No probs - but you don't need to be unpleasant about it. Calling me small minded and my opinion is a joke shows me that you wanted people to bow down and applaud your super list. No probs, I won't bother to reply to you again

Please indicate where in my post I asked for your opinion?

If you will forward your criticism at least make it constructive and most importantly factual. Have you played any games of 8th ed or are you just theorizing here? I'm 8 games in admittedly with my Death Guard and have been doing a ton of research while getting my Aeldari lists together.

But speaking strictly from current experience (interestingly enough I also play Guard and one of my main opponents is a Guard player obsessed with Guard infantry) I can attest to the might of Horde style armies in 8th. I'd even go as far as to say they are a bigger threat than vehicles. Truth is vehicles output little damage but are very resilient that's the general consensus I have seen thus far. As someone that actually owns 15 leman russes I am excited for their durability BUT the damage output is horrible unless you are using the Punisher (thank the lord i got 2) or demolisher (i only own 1 -sad face-) either way my point is i'm VERY familiar with my tanks sir. Thank you and Good Day.

Your comment that it takes 90 shuriken cannons to kill a T7 3+ vehicle is pulled out of you know exactly where. I understand this is a Dark Eldar website (which I also play mind you) but all DE players should at least be somewhat familiar with Craftworld weaponry. How do you make a comment like that with a straight face? As if wounding on 5s and hitting those Bladestorms on 6s won't make a difference. SMH After that comment I lost any respect for any feedback from you, it simply cannot be taken serious. Here is some ACTUAL math hammer for you sir.

http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/06/eldar-weapons-in-40k-8th-ed/#more-12775

As you can see from this piece of 8th edition math hammer gold

It takes 30~31 shuriken cannon shots to kill a Leman Russ or pretty much any vehicle short of a Land Raider/Monolith type.

Speaking of which it takes 57 Shuriken Cannon shots to kill a Land Raider.

Neither of which is anywhere in the ballpark of your nonsensical 90 shots.

Now lets count the number of shuriken cannons in my list....11 Cannons = 33 shots. Thus I built my list to be able to kill any vehicle short of a land raider in a single round of shooting without buffs.

This still leaves me with 7 Scatter Laseers = 28 shots at Strength 6. That are only SLIGHTLY worst at killing off said vehicles so realistically I can destroy vehicles in a single turn of any variety short of a land raider. And I have enough fire power to kill 1 land raider per turn RELIABLY.

That is before even taking into account my Pulse Lasers of which i have 3.

A pulse laser will put 2 wounds on any vehicle short of a Leman Russ/Land Raider

1.6 wounds on a Leman Russ. 1.33 Wounds on a Land Raider. Multiple those by 3 and you get 6/5/4 wounds additional respectively if I so needed extra insurance.

So no I do not accept your unconstructive comments.

The Crimson Hunter also being inefficient? What are you on?? The crimson hunter is amazing at what it's built to do. Kill Other Flyers! The Hemlock is NOT built for the same role it's the whole point....as you have most likely seen FLYERS won the first 40k 8th ed GT. So yes....my crimson hunter is AWESOME as it guarantees 1 dead flyer per turn. Do i need to provide you with the Mathhammer on that aswell?

Happy 4th of July.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 08:51

Ignoring the personal attack stuff here, Massaen has some sensible advice, albeit with some things I disagree with.

His fundamental message that your anti-tank is a bit light is reasonable.

@Akaiyou wrote:
Your comment that it takes 90 shuriken cannons to kill a T7 3+ vehicle is pulled out of you know exactly where.
Massaen said 90 shots, which is correct. You have interpreted that as firings as far as I can see. Against higher toughness vehicles, Bright Lances are much more efficient than Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers (check your own reference for detail).

Quote :
It takes 30~31 shuriken cannon shots to kill a Leman Russ or pretty much any vehicle short of a Land Raider/Monolith type.

Speaking of which it takes 57 Shuriken Cannon shots to kill a Land Raider.

Neither of which is anywhere in the ballpark of your nonsensical 90 shots.
You should mean Shuriken Cannon firings here, and 30 firings on a 3 shot gun is 90 shots.

Quote :
Now lets count the number of shuriken cannons in my list....11 Cannons = 33 shots. Thus I built my list to be able to kill any vehicle short of a land raider in a single round of shooting without buffs.
So your Shuriken Cannons give you enough shooting to kill one third of a Leman Russ per turn...

Quote :
This still leaves me with 7 Scatter Laseers = 28 shots at Strength 6. That are only SLIGHTLY worst at killing off said vehicles so realistically I can destroy vehicles in a single turn of any variety short of a land raider. And I have enough fire power to kill 1 land raider per turn RELIABLY.
This is about one fifth of a Leman Russ per turn...

Quote :
That is before even taking into account my Pulse Lasers of which i have 3.
Those help (technically you have 4 including the Crimson Hunter Exarch), but all up you can kill maybe 2/3 of a heavy tank with all your army shooting at it and not moving.

Quote :
The Crimson Hunter also being inefficient?
I agree the Crimson Hunter is really good. My Mathhammer tells me the Exarch is not worth the points, and the Starcannon option is not worth it either after the change to D3 damage in the FAQ.

You have a really hardy army, with a decent amount of anti-horde firepower, but it has some holes in it too.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 11:17

Clearly I need to teach you about maths then...

@Akaiyou wrote:
Please indicate where in my post I asked for your opinion?

Posting on a public forum implies you want feedback - if you don’t then why post it at all?

@Akaiyou wrote:
If you will forward your criticism at least make it constructive and most importantly factual. Have you played any games of 8th ed or are you just theorizing here? I'm 8 games in admittedly with my Death Guard and have been doing a ton of research while getting my Aeldari lists together.

I am a dozen games in with 8 different armies but that means little – because both your and my experience is anecdotal.

@Akaiyou wrote:
But speaking strictly from current experience (interestingly enough I also play Guard and one of my main opponents is a Guard player obsessed with Guard infantry) I can attest to the might of Horde style armies in 8th. I'd even go as far as to say they are a bigger threat than vehicles. Truth is vehicles output little damage but are very resilient that's the general consensus I have seen thus far. As someone that actually owns 15 leman russes I am excited for their durability BUT the damage output is horrible unless you are using the Punisher (thank the lord i got 2) or demolisher (i only own 1 -sad face-) either way my point is i'm VERY familiar with my tanks sir. Thank you and Good Day.

Ok… and I have experience and models as well… whats your point?

@Akaiyou wrote:
Your comment that it takes 90 shuriken cannons to kill a T7 3+ vehicle is pulled out of you know exactly where. I understand this is a Dark Eldar website (which I also play mind you) but jeezus all DE players should at least be somewhat familiar with Craftworld weaponry. How do you make a comment like that with a straight face? As if wounding on 5s and hitting those Bladestorms on 6s won't make a difference. SMH After that comment I lost any respect for any feedback from you, it simply cannot be taken serious. Here is some ACTUAL math hammer for you sir. (3++ link)
As you can see from this piece of 8th edition math hammer gold
It takes 30~31 shuriken cannon shots to kill a Leman Russ or pretty much any vehicle short of a Land Raider/Monolith type.
Speaking of which it takes 57 Shuriken Cannon shots to kill a Land Raider.
Neither of which is anywhere in the ballpark of your nonsensical 90 shots.

Ironically, I know the team at 3++ personally... and know the guy who wrote that sheet and you seem to have no idea what its showing. Ok… now I will avoid using insults but you are fundamentally wrong.

30 Shuriken Cannons = 90 shots
BS3+ means 60 hits (assuming no negative modifiers)
S6 vs T7 means wound on 5+ with 6’s at -3ap.
So that’s 20 wounds, 10 of which will be 5’s and 10 of which will be 6’s. With a 3+ save, the 10 normal wounds become just over 3 unsaved wounds while the 10 ‘bladestorm’ wounds means another 8 unsaved wounds… for a total of 11 unsaved wounds…

Tell me again why my 90 shots is nonsensical again? I’m waiting

@Akaiyou wrote:
Now lets count the number of shuriken cannons in my list....11 Cannons = 33 shots. Thus I built my list to be able to kill any vehicle short of a land raider in a single round of shooting without buffs.

Hahaha, as shown above you are wrong.

@Akaiyou wrote:
This still leaves me with 7 Scatter Laseers = 28 shots at Strength 6. That are only SLIGHTLY worst at killing off said vehicles so realistically I can destroy vehicles in a single turn of any variety short of a land raider. And I have enough fire power to kill 1 land raider per turn RELIABLY.
That is before even taking into account my Pulse Lasers of which i have 3.


Hahahahaha, yeah no – you don’t. The scatter lasers do 1-2 wounds on the move and 2 on average while stationary against T7, 3+ targets.

@Akaiyou wrote:
A pulse laser will put 2 wounds on any vehicle short of a Leman Russ/Land Raider
1.6 wounds on a Leman Russ. 1.33 Wounds on a Land Raider. Multiple those by 3 and you get 6/5/4 wounds additional respectively if I so needed extra insurance.

Again, you need to learn to calculate things

2 shots, Bs3+ vs T7 3+ save is just under 1 wound before saves on average. When moving its closer to 0.5 then 1 wound before saves. Against T8 its worse again with them averaging half a wound before saves.

@Akaiyou wrote:
So no I do not accept your kooky unconstructive comments.

Another insult… sigh

@Akaiyou wrote:
The Crimson Hunter also being inefficient? What are you on?? The crimson hunter is amazing at what it's built to do. Kill Other Flyers! The Hemlock is NOT built for the same role it's the whole point....as you have most likely seen FLYERS won the first 40k 8th ed GT. So yes....my crimson hunter is AWESOME as it guarantees 1 dead flyer per turn. Do i need to provide you with the Mathhammer on that aswell? JEEZUS!

Yeah, crimson hunter SUCK vs flyers. BS2+ means jack crap when you have a -1 to hit with heavy weapons and another -1 thanks to hard to hit.
Assuming you run the lances (cause the star cannons now suck) you have 4 shots, hitting on 4+ so 2 hits, wounding on 3+ with rerolls which is just over 1.5 wounds before saves – so around 5 damage on average. Tell me again how you ‘guarantee 1 dead flyer a turn’ again? The hunter exarch with his reroll 1 to hit makes it a little better but still not close to a downed flyer on average results.

Going star cannons and the pulse laser…
Just under 1 wound with the pulse laser become around 3 wounds while the star cannons vs T7 flyers net you another 1-2 wounds after saves.

Lets compare that to the hemlock shall we?
2d3 auto hits is 4 hits.
S10 means it wounds just about every flyer on 3+ and does 2 damage guaranteed per wound – which means on average 6 wounds per turn and that’s not taking into account its smite. Did I mention it does this to ground targets as well? And it costs LESS than the hunter exarch? And has a large debuff bubble? Yeah… but the hemlock is not built to kill flyers… right…

Maybe next time you post a list you can do so with some context as to why you are posting it so we know what you are doing it for? Maybe also keep the personal attacks out of things as well in future

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 18:03

@Kantalla wrote:
Ignoring the personal attack stuff here, Massaen has some sensible advice, albeit with some things I disagree with.

His fundamental message that your anti-tank is a bit light is reasonable.

@Akaiyou wrote:
Your comment that it takes 90 shuriken cannons to kill a T7 3+ vehicle is pulled out of you know exactly where.
Massaen said 90 shots, which is correct. You have interpreted that as firings as far as I can see. Against higher toughness vehicles, Bright Lances are much more efficient than Shuriken Cannons and Scatter Lasers (check your own reference for detail).

Quote :
It takes 30~31 shuriken cannon shots to kill a Leman Russ or pretty much any vehicle short of a Land Raider/Monolith type.

Speaking of which it takes 57 Shuriken Cannon shots to kill a Land Raider.

Neither of which is anywhere in the ballpark of your nonsensical 90 shots.
You should mean Shuriken Cannon firings here, and 30 firings on a 3 shot gun is 90 shots.

Quote :
Now lets count the number of shuriken cannons in my list....11 Cannons = 33 shots. Thus I built my list to be able to kill any vehicle short of a land raider in a single round of shooting without buffs.
So your Shuriken Cannons give you enough shooting to kill one third of a Leman Russ per turn...

Quote :
This still leaves me with 7 Scatter Laseers = 28 shots at Strength 6. That are only SLIGHTLY worst at killing off said vehicles so realistically I can destroy vehicles in a single turn of any variety short of a land raider. And I have enough fire power to kill 1 land raider per turn RELIABLY.
This is about one fifth of a Leman Russ per turn...

Quote :
That is before even taking into account my Pulse Lasers of which i have 3.
Those help (technically you have 4 including the Crimson Hunter Exarch), but all up you can kill maybe 2/3 of a heavy tank with all your army shooting at it and not moving.

Quote :
The Crimson Hunter also being inefficient?
I agree the Crimson Hunter is really good. My Mathhammer tells me the Exarch is not worth the points, and the Starcannon option is not worth it either after the change to D3 damage in the FAQ.

You have a really hardy army, with a decent amount of anti-horde firepower, but it has some holes in it too.

Correct. And I again have pulse lasers, scatter lasers, and a crimson hunter to pour shots into vehicles which as I said do little damage specially leman russes that aren't of the demolisher variant.

Dealing with Flyers and Hordes is more important in the evolving meta.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 18:44

@Massaen wrote:
Clearly I need to teach you about maths then...

@Akaiyou wrote:
Please indicate where in my post I asked for your opinion?

Posting on a public forum implies you want feedback - if you don’t then why post it at all?

@Akaiyou wrote:
If you will forward your criticism at least make it constructive and most importantly factual. Have you played any games of 8th ed or are you just theorizing here? I'm 8 games in admittedly with my Death Guard and have been doing a ton of research while getting my Aeldari lists together.

I am a dozen games in with 8 different armies but that means little – because both your and my experience is anecdotal.

@Akaiyou wrote:
But speaking strictly from current experience (interestingly enough I also play Guard and one of my main opponents is a Guard player obsessed with Guard infantry) I can attest to the might of Horde style armies in 8th. I'd even go as far as to say they are a bigger threat than vehicles. Truth is vehicles output little damage but are very resilient that's the general consensus I have seen thus far. As someone that actually owns 15 leman russes I am excited for their durability BUT the damage output is horrible unless you are using the Punisher (thank the lord i got 2) or demolisher (i only own 1 -sad face-) either way my point is i'm VERY familiar with my tanks sir. Thank you and Good Day.

Ok… and I have experience and models as well… whats your point?

@Akaiyou wrote:
Your comment that it takes 90 shuriken cannons to kill a T7 3+ vehicle is pulled out of you know exactly where. I understand this is a Dark Eldar website (which I also play mind you) but jeezus all DE players should at least be somewhat familiar with Craftworld weaponry. How do you make a comment like that with a straight face? As if wounding on 5s and hitting those Bladestorms on 6s won't make a difference. SMH After that comment I lost any respect for any feedback from you, it simply cannot be taken serious. Here is some ACTUAL math hammer for you sir. (3++ link)
As you can see from this piece of 8th edition math hammer gold
It takes 30~31 shuriken cannon shots to kill a Leman Russ or pretty much any vehicle short of a Land Raider/Monolith type.
Speaking of which it takes 57 Shuriken Cannon shots to kill a Land Raider.
Neither of which is anywhere in the ballpark of your nonsensical 90 shots.

Ironically, I know the team at 3++ personally... and know the guy who wrote that sheet and you seem to have no idea what its showing. Ok… now I will avoid using insults but you are fundamentally wrong.

30 Shuriken Cannons = 90 shots
BS3+ means 60 hits (assuming no negative modifiers)
S6 vs T7 means wound on 5+ with 6’s at -3ap.
So that’s 20 wounds, 10 of which will be 5’s and 10 of which will be 6’s. With a 3+ save, the 10 normal wounds become just over 3 unsaved wounds while the 10 ‘bladestorm’ wounds means another 8 unsaved wounds… for a total of 11 unsaved wounds…

Tell me again why my 90 shots is nonsensical again? I’m waiting

@Akaiyou wrote:
Now lets count the number of shuriken cannons in my list....11 Cannons = 33 shots. Thus I built my list to be able to kill any vehicle short of a land raider in a single round of shooting without buffs.

Hahaha, as shown above you are wrong.

@Akaiyou wrote:
This still leaves me with 7 Scatter Laseers = 28 shots at Strength 6. That are only SLIGHTLY worst at killing off said vehicles so realistically I can destroy vehicles in a single turn of any variety short of a land raider. And I have enough fire power to kill 1 land raider per turn RELIABLY.
That is before even taking into account my Pulse Lasers of which i have 3.


Hahahahaha, yeah no – you don’t. The scatter lasers do 1-2 wounds on the move and 2 on average while stationary against T7, 3+ targets.

@Akaiyou wrote:
A pulse laser will put 2 wounds on any vehicle short of a Leman Russ/Land Raider
1.6 wounds on a Leman Russ. 1.33 Wounds on a Land Raider. Multiple those by 3 and you get 6/5/4 wounds additional respectively if I so needed extra insurance.

Again, you need to learn to calculate things

2 shots, Bs3+ vs T7 3+ save is just under 1 wound before saves on average. When moving its closer to 0.5 then 1 wound before saves. Against T8 its worse again with them averaging half a wound before saves.

@Akaiyou wrote:
So no I do not accept your kooky unconstructive comments.

Another insult… sigh

@Akaiyou wrote:
The Crimson Hunter also being inefficient? What are you on?? The crimson hunter is amazing at what it's built to do. Kill Other Flyers! The Hemlock is NOT built for the same role it's the whole point....as you have most likely seen FLYERS won the first 40k 8th ed GT. So yes....my crimson hunter is AWESOME as it guarantees 1 dead flyer per turn. Do i need to provide you with the Mathhammer on that aswell? JEEZUS!

Yeah, crimson hunter SUCK vs flyers. BS2+ means jack crap when you have a -1 to hit with heavy weapons and another -1 thanks to hard to hit.
Assuming you run the lances (cause the star cannons now suck) you have 4 shots, hitting on 4+ so 2 hits, wounding on 3+ with rerolls which is just over 1.5 wounds before saves – so around 5 damage on average. Tell me again how you ‘guarantee 1 dead flyer a turn’ again? The hunter exarch with his reroll 1 to hit makes it a little better but still not close to a downed flyer on average results.

Going star cannons and the pulse laser…
Just under 1 wound with the pulse laser become around 3 wounds while the star cannons vs T7 flyers net you another 1-2 wounds after saves.

Lets compare that to the hemlock shall we?
2d3 auto hits is 4 hits.
S10 means it wounds just about every flyer on 3+ and does 2 damage guaranteed per wound – which means on average 6 wounds per turn and that’s not taking into account its smite. Did I mention it does this to ground targets as well? And it costs LESS than the hunter exarch? And has a large debuff bubble? Yeah… but the hemlock is not built to kill flyers… right…

Maybe next time you post a list you can do so with some context as to why you are posting it so we know what you are doing it for? Maybe also keep the personal attacks out of things as well in future

Fair point on the Shuriken thing I did indeed read that wrong. See unlike you I do recognize my mistakes. So let me be clear, your original post was still nonsense advice and subquently you have provided nothing but crappy commentary. But in an effort to be civil and because it is a matter of FACT that I read the Shuriken Cannon thing wrong, I will address you as I would someone who gave their advice (and corrections) in a more constructive way. Like the poster just above you whom did just that, take cue

Discounting the fact that I'd do 1/3 of the damage with the shurikens. As i pointed out earlier I still have plenty guns capable of combining their firepower to wreck a Leman Russ. Which I repeat and I really can't say this enough apparently....Leman Russ aren't a big threat in 8th edition. The only good ones are demolishers and punishers which have 24" in range placing them just in range of all my weapons AND the damage they do CANNOT kill a wave serpent in a turn.

Guard Infantry is a lot more potent than their vehicles currently. We all know this. So this obsession with destroying these vehicles that you have, is something I simply don't. So if I can only kill 1 per turn instead of 2 or 3 as i originally thought was possible then I am perfectly fine with that. I built my list to be able to take care of hordes with some flyer defense as intended.

According to the very math of 3plusplus that I reference and you are buddy buddy with. The crimson hunter (assuming the starcannon did 3 flat damage) would be able to do more damage than the hemlock. This has clearly changed, this list was built prior to me realizing there was an FAQ out. So the effectiveness has been reduced, it still doesn't mean that it isn't an efficient anti-flyer choice.

It still re-rolls to hit and to wound versus enemy flyers the re-roll to wound really helps out the starcannons. It could have indeed used an ability to deny the negative modifier to shooting heavy weapons while moving at enemy flyers but whatever.

Anyway on a good roll with those nice re-rolls of 1. It's not impossible for the crimson hunter to hit with all 6 of it's shots. 2 pulse lasers, 4 starcannons. Even at -2 to hit due to the re-roll 1s. Having all hit they would've had a very high chance to wound a T6 flyer and still a high chance on a T7 flyer. Possibly dealing out 6 damage (from pulse lasers) + 12 damage (from starcannons pre-FAQ) that's what my research showed and I banked on that when building the list even ripped off my brightlances to switch to starcannons exarch...sigh. Regrets.

That's cleary an 'everything goes according to plan' scenario. But even if 2 of all shots fired failed to cause an unsaved wound, it would've been 12 wounds inflicted. Again dead flyer. Odds bieng pretty realistic of 4 shots hitting and wounding.

So yes you can run the math post-FAQ and laugh about it if you so wish and say starcannons on average are doing 2 damage instead of the guaranteed 3 from when I built the list. I would support that math and assume that my crimson hunter exarch can reliably be counting on to put anywhere from 8-10 unsaved wounds on an enemy flyer. (Not doing math here, simply adjusting expected damage)

The hemlock as your math shows will auto hit which is GREAT! And does a guaranteed 2 damage which again is great! So damage wise you can expect 6-8 unsaved wounds vs an enemy flyer which is again great! But it has little potential to do more than that since it does not re-roll to wound and it has to wound on a 3+ with no rerolls. Sure you can cast smite aswell but you'd still need to pass the test, enemy has a chance to deny, and the damage done is random. In other words one too many factors to properly build a plan around it. I always view smite in my lists as 'additional wounds' i can do when all else fails.

So yeah I will stick to the crimson hunter exarch as I still believe he is the superior choice (slightly as it may be) and flyers are a much larger threat than Leman Russes so I'll focus on taking down hordes and flyers instead of being too concerned about a Punisher/Demolisher coming at me.

My list has changed by the way I will post the new one. I changed it after reading that FAQ, I went back infact and re-did all my eldar lists to be slightly more effective at the cost of losing some command points. I still feel the list is solid and if you don't like it that's ok. For the record, posting a list in a forum doesnt mean 'tell me what to change'

It could also mean 'let me know if there's any mistakes that would make the list illegal to use'
It could also mean 'hey check out this cool theme I want to try. Do you think it's cool too?'
potentially it could also be "check out how awesomely competitive my WAAC list is"
or
"I got this idea I want to try out, did I miss anything?"

Personally I have nothing but disdain for comments from people that want to make everyone play the same list. This is exactly what other people complain about in WAAC players. When i originally came to this board the most common advice was "ONLY EVER TAKE A LHAMEAN AS AN HQ NOTHING ELSE!!!!" It was soooo commonly adviced, I went ahead and converted one and tried it. But time and again I instead opted to field my Succubus (favorite model in the Dark Eldar range) becuase she looks badass and embodies everything that Dark Eldar is (to me). Every now and then fielding my Archons with Blasters because I like the idea of the Shadow Field (who doesnt). Yet every single time I posted my list the very first thing out of anyone's mouth was TAKE A LHAMEAN instead. Even when I explicitidly stated in the pos that I was not looking to change the list and just wanted thoughts on it as is.

Just a thought, but it is best not to assume that everyone wants/seeks the same kind of input. We are all human, we make mistakes, and want different things. Just a consideration.
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 19:01

Dude...

Toxicity much?

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 20:01

Gents, please keep this civil. No name calling etc. Posts above edited.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Tue Jul 04 2017, 21:53

List Updated:


++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [58 PL, 1055pts] ++

+ HQ +

Autarch Skyrunner [7 PL, 129pts]: Forceshield, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Heavy Support +

Falcon [11 PL, 206pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

Falcon [11 PL, 206pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

Falcon [11 PL, 206pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Scatter Laser, Shuriken Cannon

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 154pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon, Twin Scatter Laser

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 154pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon, Twin Scatter Laser

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [48 PL, 942pts] ++

+ HQ +

Autarch Skyrunner [7 PL, 129pts]: Forceshield, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult

+ Fast Attack +

Vypers [4 PL, 88pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

Vypers [4 PL, 88pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

Vypers [4 PL, 88pts]
. Vyper: Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon

+ Flyer +

Crimson Hunter Exarch [11 PL, 243pts]: Two Starcannons

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 153pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Twin Shuriken Cannon

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 153pts]: Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Twin Shuriken Cannon

++ Total: [106 PL, 1997pts] ++
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Wed Jul 05 2017, 06:32

@Akaiyou wrote:
For the record, posting a list in a forum doesnt mean 'tell me what to change'

It could also mean 'let me know if there's any mistakes that would make the list illegal to use'
It could also mean 'hey check out this cool theme I want to try. Do you think it's cool too?'
potentially it could also be "check out how awesomely competitive my WAAC list is"
or
"I got this idea I want to try out, did I miss anything?"

Personally I have nothing but disdain for comments from people that want to make everyone play the same list. This is exactly what other people complain about in WAAC players. When i originally came to this board the most common advice was "ONLY EVER TAKE A LHAMEAN AS AN HQ NOTHING ELSE!!!!" It was soooo commonly adviced, I went ahead and converted one and tried it. But time and again I instead opted to field my Succubus (favorite model in the Dark Eldar range) becuase she looks badass and embodies everything that Dark Eldar is (to me). Every now and then fielding my Archons with Blasters because I like the idea of the Shadow Field (who doesnt). Yet every single time I posted my list the very first thing out of anyone's mouth was TAKE A LHAMEAN instead. Even when I explicitidly stated in the pos that I was not looking to change the list and just wanted thoughts on it as is.

Just a thought, but it is best not to assume that everyone wants/seeks the same kind of input. We are all human, we make mistakes, and want different things. Just a consideration.

The onus is on you to clarify why you posted on the forum then - you gave zero indication of what you wanted to achieve and so I gave a short section of feedback (via mobile) when I could.

I have never tried to make you or anyone else play the same list. I get wanting to take things because they are cool/your favourite model/what ever. Maybe you have the models and what to try it out - great! Say that in the post! Forum members benefit when you then tell us how it went! Not interested in competitive gaming? Awesome! Tell us that this is for a campaign game or friendlies with your mates so we have context.

Adding some explanation as to what you want to achieve by posting it as well as maybe some comments around why you picked what you did would greatly help the back and forth of interaction.

In regards to your new list - I actually really like the idea of running a vehicle heavy CWE force. Again, my personal experience means I would change the load outs on the tanks slightly (I tend to see 120ish infantry and then 7-10 chimera hulls - like manticores and wyverns in 2k games) but that's my own local gaming scene. Had you considered perhaps changing one of the autarchs for a farseer? Doom and guide would be quite welcome in this list I think.

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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Wed Jul 05 2017, 18:37

@Massaen wrote:
@Akaiyou wrote:
For the record, posting a list in a forum doesnt mean 'tell me what to change'

It could also mean 'let me know if there's any mistakes that would make the list illegal to use'
It could also mean 'hey check out this cool theme I want to try. Do you think it's cool too?'
potentially it could also be "check out how awesomely competitive my WAAC list is"
or
"I got this idea I want to try out, did I miss anything?"

Personally I have nothing but disdain for comments from people that want to make everyone play the same list. This is exactly what other people complain about in WAAC players. When i originally came to this board the most common advice was "ONLY EVER TAKE A LHAMEAN AS AN HQ NOTHING ELSE!!!!" It was soooo commonly adviced, I went ahead and converted one and tried it. But time and again I instead opted to field my Succubus (favorite model in the Dark Eldar range) becuase she looks badass and embodies everything that Dark Eldar is (to me). Every now and then fielding my Archons with Blasters because I like the idea of the Shadow Field (who doesnt). Yet every single time I posted my list the very first thing out of anyone's mouth was TAKE A LHAMEAN instead. Even when I explicitidly stated in the pos that I was not looking to change the list and just wanted thoughts on it as is.

Just a thought, but it is best not to assume that everyone wants/seeks the same kind of input. We are all human, we make mistakes, and want different things. Just a consideration.

The onus is on you to clarify why you posted on the forum then - you gave zero indication of what you wanted to achieve and so I gave a short section of feedback (via mobile) when I could.

I have never tried to make you or anyone else play the same list. I get wanting to take things because they are cool/your favourite model/what ever. Maybe you have the models and what to try it out - great! Say that in the post! Forum members benefit when you then tell us how it went! Not interested in competitive gaming? Awesome! Tell us that this is for a campaign game or friendlies with your mates so we have context.

Adding some explanation as to what you want to achieve by posting it as well as maybe some comments around why you picked what you did would greatly help the back and forth of interaction.

In regards to your new list - I actually really like the idea of running a vehicle heavy CWE force. Again, my personal experience means I would change the load outs on the tanks slightly (I tend to see 120ish infantry and then 7-10 chimera hulls - like manticores and wyverns in 2k games) but that's my own local gaming scene. Had you considered perhaps changing one of the autarchs for a farseer? Doom and guide would be quite welcome in this list I think.

LOL what's so funny? I agree with most of what you said here. 110% in fact I used to do so all the time being VERY VERY specific in my posts about what my going theme was and what I wanted to achieve. I found that most of the time it literally got ignored and I was getting the same feedback, which used to piss me off because then I would respond (please read carefully) or something else either way it was frustrating to spend the time to be specific about what I seek and have it simply ignored most of the time. So I'm trying a different approach of just toss it out there and see what comes back.

I have surprinsingly enough gotten some good ideas that wasn't simply "put brightlances everywhere". One guy suggested that in a lot of my lists I had 3 HQs and could gain an additional CP if i split them into an additional vanguard/spearhead detachment. I didn't even consider that until he said it and that's def an improvement. I do hint at what the list is about however in the name itself or the small description. For example this list FALCON PUNCH should indicate that I want to use falcons, not to mention the lil description states it's about grav tank spam. The other list states in the small description that it's Biel-tan oriented. I understand this isn't as effective as saying 'Hey i got these falcons and i want to build a list around them what do you recommend?' but that just wasn't working for me.

As for the list advice you just provided.

I have a somewhat similar list with the farseer using doom + fortune. The reason I used autarch skyrunners is because they can keep up with the pace of the tanks, hide amongst them and provide a 6" bubble of re-roll 1s to all of them within range.

I was working off theory there but I assumed that is more effective than fielding the Farseer and only being able to guide 1 unit per turn. While doom is amazing to use I think overall my damage output is higher by having multiple units hitting more effectively no?

For the most part my opponents go for an infantry approach. I'll be honest, I own a lot of 40k crap i'd say 2 or 3 times as much as all my buddies combined. The guard player will stick to infantry and only play in games up to 1500 he has a chimera, 2 russes, 2 basilisk, 1 manticore, 1 vendetta at his disposal.

Tau player has an army from the 5th ed days, so he does own a lot of Tau vehicles but nothing recent. Infact his most recent investment was into a riptide and a ghostkeel after I let him play test using my 2 riptides at the end of 7th to get him back into 40k. He has a wide variety of choices but usually likes a very gunline approach and is very flexible with his list builds.

The space marine player is my "preferred enemy" i play against him the most, he owns a lot of stuff including super heavies and he loves powergaming. He also owns some guardsmen/space wolves on the side and he only plays Imperium armies. So i'm more concerned about being able to handle nasty space marine lists since this guy won't have any problem using whatever is the most OP out there.

That being said, now you have a better understanding of what im up against and description of what I want from the list (Falcons!) everything else is malleable here. So some questions you or anyone else interest can answer:

1. What are some preferred configurations for Falcons that you'd recommend?

2. What are some preferred configurations for Wave Serpents that you'd recommend?

3. If you would build a list around these 3 Falcons, what units would you choose to compliment?

I'll even toss a brief list of Eldar stuff at my disposal

HQ
01 Eldrad Ulthran - 180

01 Avatar of Khaine - 250

02 Autarch Skyrunner - 129
Fusion Gun

01 Autarch Skyrunner -
Laser Lance

03 Farseer - 113

01 Farseer Skyrunner - 171

6 Warlock - 37
Wychblade
Conceal/Reveal

3 Warlock -
Singing Spear
Conceal/Reveal


01 Spiritseer - 66

Wraithseer - 200/10
Ghostspear
D-Cannon

TROOPS
20 Guardian Defenders - 160

20 Guardian Defenders - 160

20 Guardian Defenders - 160

06 Heavy Weapon Platform

10 Dire Avengers - 177
Dire Avenger Exarch - Two Avenger Shuriken Catapult

10 Dire Avengers - 187
Dire Avenger Exarch - Power Sword; Shimmershield

10 Dire Avengers - 187
Dire Avenger Exarch - Power Sword; Shimmershield

05 Dire Avengers - 85


ELITES
06 Fire Dragons - 149
Fire Dragon Exarch - Firepike

06 Fire Dragons - 149
Fire Dragon Exarch - Firepike

07 Howling Banshees - 124
Howling Banshee Exarch - Executioner

06 Striking Scorpions - 124
Striking Scorpion Exarch - Biting Blade

05 Wraithblades - 260
Ghostaxe and Forceshield

10 Wraithguard - 400
Wraithcannon

10 Wraithguard - 450
D-scythe

FAST ATTACK
06 Swooping Hawks - 106
Swooping Hawk Exarch - Sunrifle

03 Vyper - 88
Shuriken Cannon; Shuriken Cannon

HEAVY SUPPORT
04 Dark Reapers - 125
Dark Reaper Exarch - Shuriken Cannon

01 Falcon - 206
Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon
Crystal Targeting Matrix

01 Falcon - 206
Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon
Crystal Targeting Matrix

01 Falcon - 206
Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon
Crystal Targeting Matrix

03 Vauls Wrath Support Battery
D-Cannon x3
Vibro Cannon x3
Shadow Weaver x3

02 Wraithlord - 121
Flamer

01 Wraithlord - 113
Shuriken Catapult
Ghostglaive

Warp Hunter - 245/12
D-flail
Twin Shuriken Catapult

TRANSPORTS
02 Wave Serpent - 149
Twin Scatter Lasers
Shuriken Cannon

02 Wave Serpent - 143
Twin Shuriken Cannon
Shuriken Cannon

FLYERS
01 Crimson Hunter - 183
01 Crimson Hunter Exarch - 243
Starcannons

Lord of War
02 Wraithknight - 540
Suncannon with Scattershield

02 Wraithknight - 487
Titanic Ghostglaive with Scattershield
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spellcheck2001
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PostSubject: Re: Craftworlds - Falcon PUNCH! - 2000   Thu Jul 06 2017, 06:33

post Moved to army lists. SC

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