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 Do trueborn have a place in this edition?

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 16:03

With scourges being so few points more than them, having less restrictions and having deepstrike plus an invul save. Is there a place for trueborn?

I started to wonder this after reading the footslogging thread and remembering the old sniper squads of warriors having 10warriors w 2 dark lances for 100-120 points. And wondering if such an objective holding, uber cheap squad was worth it these days, and if so how could it be done?
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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 16:20

As long Scourge are allowed to go in a transport i would say no, but i'm almost sure it wasnt intented by the developper
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 16:23

115 for 5 Trueborn with Blasters compared to 130 for 5 Scourge with 4 Blasters. 15 points to upgrade a squad to 4+ and 6++ with a 14" move, rather than a 5+ and a 7" move. It's a good spot and a tricky decision.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 16:26

177 points for 7 Trueborn with 2 Dark Lances and 4 Blasters vs 150 points for 5 Scourges with 4 Dark Lances (130 for 4 Blasters).

I'd say they potentially still have a use, especially if you want to camp objectives, which would negate the Scourge advantage of maneuverability.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 16:41

For my army, Trueborn still have a place. I'm not going to try to argue that they are any better or worse than a unit of DL Scourges, but they still function well in my army for the role that I have them performing.

What has been working for me so far in 8th is to layer my threats that I'm showing my opponent. For example:

I drop my DL Scourges in terrain in a location to take advantage of the 36" range.
The trueborn (in a Venom) will be used as a fast mid range threat to help control the center of the board.
I use my CC units (wyches and/or incubi) to get up in the enemies face ASAP.

I'll mix in a flyer, ravager, and some gunboats (and sometimes mandrakes) as well.

I've found that this really gives the enemy some serious issues with target priority. Especially if I'm able to dictate which units my CC units can get into combat with.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 16:57

Point is that Scourges do not NEED the transport. Trueborn do... Plus you know... eggs in basket and all that.
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 17:12

I have to agree that Trueborn lack purpose now, or are simply too expensive.
I somehow feel that Trueborn and Dracons should have been split up, kind of like Astartes "Company Champions" as characters with buff abilities.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 17:40

Cmon ppl. :-) They DO have a purpose - a Kabal themed list would not be proper without them...

And well... My Kabal-themed list would include a Vanguard Detachment with Trueborn filling the mandatory choices. 3x10 in Raider without special weapons and tooled Dracon are great anti-horde as they each have 2 poison shots and 2 CC attacks. It would look awesome too.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 18:22

Hmm never thought about this.... But if you where going for a highly mobile army, Scourges in transports over Trueborns sounds fun.

They are 15pts more, if you spam that 6x its only 90pts more, in a 2k game 90pts isnt much at all to have your 6 main units better movement and saves.

This is nuts!

Edit, here are base unit type full points for bodies no weapons they are 5 units of 5 each

Warriors: 175pts
Trueborns: 275pts
Scourges: 350pts

For sure if you are going for only special weapons and no utility the trueborns are cheaper, if you want just to have cheap units with 1-2 special weapons and loads of agonisers then warriors fit that better.

Even 2 units of Scourges with 4 blasters/agoniser, 1 unit of Shardcarbines for AI, and a unit of DL's would be neat to play, thats 4 units.

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Toffeehammer
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:49

Honestly even if the trueborn were complete garbage this edition I'd probably still field them. I spent way too much time and money hunting down those blasters and wych helmets to bench them.
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Frederick Vael
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 15:12

The real dealbreaker is scourges being able to hop on vehicles. Without that, Trueborns would have their uses, as they would be equally costed as scourges, but be more durable because of the vehicle. This is, obviously, not counting the cost of the vehicle per se as I think you would field the vehicle anyway. Being able to mount different units on the same vehicle allows you to have 5 warriors/trueborns on a raider plus a wych or incubi or whatever unit inside.

Trueborns seem good because, inside a venom or raider, and being able to split fire, you could mix splinter cannons/blasters/shreders and be able to fill AT/AI needs in your army from inside your tanks. The thing is scourges can do the same, and can get more options, as you can have 4 of each weapon. Plus they have better armor. Plus they can fly and deep strike.

The only reedeming quality of trueborns are that they are cheaper models (kind of) as they are warriors, and that they are Elite, and maybe you want your FA slots for something else (although on this edition that won't be a problem). Also, if you don't like getting scourges on raider, then pick trueborns, I guess.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 15:18

Slot dont matter anymore, honestly having 3 elites and 3 fast is better due to command points.

its only 15pts difference in 5man units between Trueborn and Scourges the real point saver is Warriors, being 1/2 the cost of Scourges (35pts vs 70) you can spam warriors and 1-2 weapons per unit to have much more models in the vehicles and just use the warriors splinter guns for AI due to how split fire is.

These are 2 completely different play styles and tactics, but idk what would be better, for me Scourges would be more fun tho you have 1/2 the units but double the power.

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Bugs_N_Orks
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 15:46

To me the main problem with Trueborn is that Blasters are now not very good due to having only D3 damage, no idea why they did that when almost every other army's special weapon AT is D6 (and usually roll 2 take the highest at half range). The math is pretty depressing, 4 blasters deal an average of 3.55 wounds before invuls/FNP to anything T7 and under. So it'll take 3 squads to kill a rhino.

Scourges can take 4 DLs for only 35 points more than a Trueborn Blaster squad which automatically makes them way better for me. 4 DLs deal 6.22 wounds to the same target so are significantly more points efficient and make a better target for command re-rolls.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 16:37

Blaster are not AV anymore, even thought they are good AV support, but shifted to anti heavy infantry.
They are the only good counter to necron vehicles.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 16:39

Yeah i use Blasters as AI and backup AT.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 21:27

Blasters are not as bad as it looks. That damage roll - 66% of the time you get 2 dmg or better. Lances are much more fickle. Blasters are better on anything that moves. I know that statistics say that moving DLs are still the winner, but reality taught me better...

As for Scourges vs. Trueborn - Its as with the Blaster vs. DL - the obvious is not always right. Trueborn are fine. I'd probably play both in Kabal list just to mess with target priority.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 23:21

In 7th edition, Trueborn at least had the advantage that you could take Venoms, but now they have the disadvantage that they need to get a Venom...
For me, transports are too expensive to hand them out like candy. I try to avoid taking too many transports and Scourges mitigates that perfectly.

Furthermore, the price difference of a Scourge and a Trueborn is almost insignificant. I think the extra points are almost worth it for the armor alone.

Trueborn really need something extra. They should really be our equivalent to Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers in terms of shooting.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 11:35

I believe that if you count the cost of Trueborn and Venom in 7th and add 10% to it (because games have about 10% more points allowance) you will find they still cost the same in relative terms.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 14:44

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
In 7th edition, Trueborn at least had the advantage that you could take Venoms, but now they have the disadvantage that they need to get a Venom...
For me, transports are too expensive to hand them out like candy. I try to avoid taking too many transports and Scourges mitigates that perfectly.

Furthermore, the price difference of a Scourge and a Trueborn is almost insignificant. I think the extra points are almost worth it for the armor alone.

Trueborn really need something extra. They should really be our equivalent to Fire Dragons or Dark Reapers in terms of shooting.

I was thinking of taking 4 units of Scourges and 2 Raiders, so if i dont need to DS I can just place them in the Raiders. This still gives me a couple transports (B.c i like them) at the same time it also still saves points, sense i normally take 3-4 Trueborn anyways with 2-3 Raiders and 1 venom. Taking 1 less vehicle will save me points even tho Scourges cost more (saves me either 45 or 30pts, not to much but thats better than nothing). Also b.c 1 of the 4 units of Scourges is a AI harasser (5 Shardcarbines, i wanted to test this out) over a shredder unit of trueborns, i will save even more points (an additional 17pts).

Im with you that Trueborns need something else or just make them 1-2pts cheaper.
I personally rather they get a 4+ save

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 15:30

I don't care for their save. As long as they are inside a transport the Armour save doesn't matter.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 15:37

Understandable, but i like the option of them Not taking a Raider and having a 5man with 2 DL's in cover for a 3+ save and 2 more Lances on the table that are not huge threats, that they wont just die from some cheap long range AI.

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HedonisiusVex
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 19:33

I run trueborn in 5 man units in Raiders (4-5 units in 2-3 Raiders) with 2 blasters and two splintercannons in each. They've performed well for the most part, and I haven't noticed much of a difference between lances and blasters, I usually roll low on lance damage though lol

And since now we can't put Scourges in Raiders, I'd say they absolutely are worth taking. 115 unit that can fight just about anything you opponent can throw at me (haven't fought much horde yet, everyone at my store likes as many wounds on one monster/vehicle as possible. Just the other day I played a 1750 game against a Tau supremacy suit supported by an ethereal, some pathfinder, and a yvarra. I killed everything but the big suit, which I just sort of hid from all game in favor of taking tactical objectives. I lost by one point because he got a lucky tactical objective and scored 3 points off one card, otherwise I would have won by 3

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Gherma
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 20:29

Hi new FAQ, hello trueborn in vehicles, goodbye scourges in vehicles.

So they still have place it seems.

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 20:31

Well considering the FAQ I think Trueborn are back and Scourges are back to doing what they're supposed to do ( being mobile shooty jump infantry, not being trueborn with wings). Has anyone tried a trueborn unit like this? I felt the need to get some more dakka for my TAC lists so I'm planning on running something like this:
5 Trueborn
- X4 Splinter cannon
-PGL
-Venom
Total:198

36 shots at 12" seems rather good and I feel it's going to be important to be able to put out a large amount of AI fire. It's a shame it's concentrated on 1 unit however. Another interesting point, does this make the cannon on the Venom worth it, simply because it has synergy with the range of the Trueborn?
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HedonisiusVex
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PostSubject: Re: Do trueborn have a place in this edition?   Sun Jul 02 2017, 20:39

I believe the general consensus is that the extra SC on venoms is only with it if you have the points to spare. (So don't make room for it, the points can be better spent elsewhere. I like the 4 splintercannons but it's all about what you pay against the most. I have too much high toughness vehicle spam in my local meta for that, so I do 2 units of 5 with 2 blasters and two splintercannons in each unit in a raider with a dissie

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