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krayd
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PostSubject: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 02:54

Does anyone have any tips for facing Knights armies (Imperial or Renegade - they appear to have identical stats)? As far as I can tell, the only strategy is to bring a LOT of lances, hope that you can kill one of your opponent's knights as quickly as possible with focused fire in order to drastically reduce your opponent's ample firepower, and then try to keep from getting blown off of objectives for the rest of the game. More specifically, I'm interested in tips for facing them with a TAC list, because a pure anti-armor list would seem detrimental in a tourney environment, what with the 8th edition rise of hordes and all.

For example, I recently played against the following 2000 pt list:

3 Renegade Knights
3 Warpsmiths
1 Sorceror

I was using a TAC list, so I had a significant number of lances... but I wasn't optimized for fighting mechanized armies specifically, so some unlucky rolls on my end, and some lucky invul saves on his end kept me from doing sufficient damage to the knight I was focused on, on my first turn - I did manage to get the knight just below half wounds, but his warpsmith brought him back to above half, so it was still firing at full effectiveness for his 2nd round of shooting. And then my problems were multiplied as he started bringing in another knight to support the first.

Other than bringing LOTS of lances, and hoping for some luck, I'm not seeing too many useful tactics here.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 03:33

Depends on the mission. Some missions can be won even without shooting a single time at the Knights. Knights are actually much disadvantaged in quite a few missions. Thats why they usually bring numerous chaff. If you have TAC, you should be better prepared to score on missions than he is. Forget about killing and concentrate on objectives. A single infantry model can score over a knight sometimes.

If you can kill one knight in 2 turns you should be able to pull it anyway.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 04:57

The particular mission I played with Secure and Control, so there were only two objectives on the board. What lost me the game was not being able to kill at least one knight quickly enough. The amount of firepower that he has access to, plus 12 stomp attacks in melee, make it really difficult to hold onto an objective with a knight standing next to it.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 05:27

We don't have enough AT firepower to take out a Knight in a reasonable space of time, let alone three.

I'm sorry, we just don't. Bringing some CWE Fire Dragons would've solved the problem in a hurry, but DE don't have that kinda dedicated firepower. It'll take a little over 30 DL shots to take out an IK, or 27 Disintegrator Cannons. Bring an army that can field that kinda turn 1 firepower and you've left yourself completely crippled against horde armies.

As for what to do about it, the best I can think of is to hang back all game and engage in a shooting contest, then rush in and objective-secure on the last turn. "I've got three kabalite warriors and you've got two knights, so I hold the objective!"
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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 05:37

Based on that, I;d say prioroty the first would be to take out those Warpsmiths and Sorcerer. I know as Characters that becomes difficult, but if you can it only leaves him with generic Knights.

Past that, weight of fire seems the best option.
I say bring Lances, but also try to squeeze in some Rangers for those Characters.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:14

mynamelegend wrote:
We don't have enough AT firepower to take out a Knight in a reasonable space of time, let alone three.

I'm sorry, we just don't. Bringing some CWE Fire Dragons would've solved the problem in a hurry, but DE don't have that kinda dedicated firepower. It'll take a little over 30 DL shots to take out an IK, or 27 Disintegrator Cannons. Bring an army that can field that kinda turn 1 firepower and you've left yourself completely crippled against horde armies.

As for what to do about it, the best I can think of is to hang back all game and engage in a shooting contest, then rush in and objective-secure on the last turn. "I've got three kabalite warriors and you've got two knights, so I hold the objective!"

Well, I was telling a mutual friend that there was nothing about that list that a squad of fire dragons crammed into a wave serpent wouldn't fix. However, for now, I'm trying to see what I can manage with pure DE.

Regardless, the sorceror probably needs to go ASAP. Knights + prescience is a very nasty combo... especially with avenger gatling cannons. In the game that I did play, he let his knight get too far ahead of the sorceror, so I was able to get a clear shot and kill it... but this was around turn 3, after I had sustained heavy casualties.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:17

Well I usually start with 2x RWJ, 1x Bomber and 3 Ravagers with approx half/half Lance/Dissie loadouts. Plus missiles. Thats roughly 1000 pts. I think I do bring enough firepower to kill 1 knight a turn if I focus. Throw in a CP reroll at the right time, Shock Prows, Blaster here and there in the other half of the army and bit of maneuvering and it is doable.

Also dont forget that the knights cannot charge our planes. Hiding a ravager behind a plane means he wont probably make the charge and cannot charge the blocker...
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:19

Squidmaster wrote:
Based on that, I;d say prioroty the first would be to take out those Warpsmiths and Sorcerer. I know as Characters that becomes difficult, but if you can it only leaves him with generic Knights.

Past that, weight of fire seems the best option.
I say bring Lances, but also try to squeeze in some Rangers for those Characters.

Mandrakes did an adequate job of dropping in and hitting one warpsmith. A unit of rangers is probably a good idea too though, but I'm going to try to beat him at least one more time with pure DE before I branch out into craftworlders.

Though, I do have a list prepared that includes a patrol detachment with a farseer, fire dragons, and rangers.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:21

aurynn wrote:
Well I usually start with 2x RWJ, 1x Bomber and 3 Ravagers with approx half/half Lance/Dissie loadouts. Plus missiles. Thats roughly 1000 pts. I think I do bring enough firepower to kill 1 knight a turn if I focus. Throw in a CP reroll at the right time, Shock Prows, Blaster here and there in the other half of the army and bit of maneuvering and it is doable.

Also dont forget that the knights cannot charge our planes. Hiding a ravager behind a plane means he wont probably make the charge and cannot charge the blocker...

Well, then it's time for me to assemble my bomber.

I hadn't thought of trying to put a flyer in front of skimmers in order to increase the charge distance - I'll give that a shot if the opportunity presents itself.

One problem is that, since flyers have to start on the board, and knight armies are basically guaranteed first turn, the planes are probably going to be very vulnerable.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:26

krayd wrote:
Though, I do have a list prepared that includes a patrol detachment with a farseer, fire dragons, and rangers.

Fire Dragons are a great choice, by far one of the game's most point-effective units for this, but still nowhere near sufficient. It'd take 16 Fire Dragons, in sweetspot range, WITH Doom, to take out an IK.

IKs just have absolutely ridiculous defenses due to that stupidly absurd number of wounds they're rolling with. It's basically not feasible to attempt to bring enough firepower to kill them.

Nevermind within the DE codex, I'm starting to wonder if any codex can actually bring enough firepower to take out triple knight lists and still have points left over for when their next tournament opponent rolls up with 150 conscripts.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:35

krayd wrote:
aurynn wrote:
Well I usually start with 2x RWJ, 1x Bomber and 3 Ravagers with approx half/half Lance/Dissie loadouts. Plus missiles. Thats roughly 1000 pts. I think I do bring enough firepower to kill 1 knight a turn if I focus. Throw in a CP reroll at the right time, Shock Prows, Blaster here and there in the other half of the army and bit of maneuvering and it is doable.

Also dont forget that the knights cannot charge our planes. Hiding a ravager behind a plane means he wont probably make the charge and cannot charge the blocker...

Well, then it's time for me to assemble my bomber.

I hadn't thought of trying to put a flyer in front of skimmers in order to increase the charge distance - I'll give that a shot if the opportunity presents itself.

One problem is that, since flyers have to start on the board, and knight armies are basically guaranteed first turn, the planes are probably going to be very vulnerable.
Thats why you put dissies on the planes. If he shoots them to deprive you of tactical advantage, he gets -1 to hit and you wont lose any lances if he kills them...

Also try to use the explosions of your vehicles to deal some MVs too.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:58

Note that Dissies are, weapon-for-weapon, better at killing IKs than Lances are.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 07:08

Yes, but with Lances you can use your rerolls on damage. Since you roll your damage after saves. I believe that they are actually more important than Dissies in inflicting Alpha/Beta damage.
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 07:10

mynamelegend wrote:
Note that Dissies are, weapon-for-weapon, better at killing IKs than Lances are.

Unless you count void lances, or dark lances because both of those do more damage against a knight.


EDIT: math averages

Dissies: average 1.11 unsaved wounds per single weapon (3 shots)
Dark Lance: 1.17 unsaved wounds per single weapon
Void Lance: 1.56 unsaved wounds per single weapon


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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 07:23

I believe the breaking point of Dissies being better is 4++. Anyway I like to bring equal number of Lances and Dissies.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 08:18

Seshiru wrote:

EDIT: math averages

Dissies: average 1.11 unsaved wounds per single weapon (3 shots)
Dark Lance: 1.17 unsaved wounds per single weapon
Void Lance: 1.56 unsaved wounds per single weapon


Odd, my math gets it to 0.77 unsaved wounds from a DL and 0.88 from a Dissie, when firing at an IK.

DL: 1 shot, 2/3rds chance to hit, 1/2 chance to wound, 2/3rds chance to pass the invuln, multiply by 3.5: 0.77
Dissie: 3 shots, 2/3rds chance to hit, 1/3 chance to wound, 2/3rds chance to pass the invuln, multiply by 2: 0.88

Edit: Yeah, I think you forgot to include that IKs have a 5++ against shooting - this is what brings Dissies out to eke out the win over DLs.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 11:21

Whoops, yes I missed the invul.
Sorry about that.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 11:50

Mandrake spam?

2000 points is roughly 100 models (maxed out units, footslogging with a lone Archon as HQ)

100 models is 200 shots with a Baleblast.

That's 22.222 mortal wounds a turn on average. In addition to any wounds caused by regular shooting, or chopping.

Enough to probably kill a single Knight in a turn, having half your army in deep strike also protects you from the Knights alpha. As does the Mandrake's innate -1 to Hit and 5++, 6+++.

Your only problem will be getting into that 18" range with all of your guns. Maybe swap out the Archon for a Succubus and charge the Warpsmith?

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 12:26

Ikol wrote:
Mandrake spam?

2000 points is roughly 100 models (maxed out units, footslogging with a lone Archon as HQ)

100 models is 200 shots with a Baleblast.

That's 22.222 mortal wounds a turn on average.  In addition to any wounds caused by regular shooting, or chopping.

That sounds insane enough to work!

However, I'll let someone else try that, because I'm not crazy enough to buy 90 more mandrakes. Razz
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:11

Ask your opponent (friend?). If he'll let you 'counts as' a "really stupid idea someone had that might just work against your triple Knights list."

That's how I normally test run new ideas/ lists when I'm not sure about the spending factor yet.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:45

Ikol wrote:
Ask your opponent (friend?). If he'll let you 'counts as' a "really stupid idea someone had that might just work against your triple Knights list."

That's how I normally test run new ideas/ lists when I'm not sure about the spending factor yet.

Now I'm wondering how viable mandrake spam would be vs. other armies also.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:57

krayd wrote:
Ikol wrote:
Ask your opponent (friend?). If he'll let you 'counts as' a "really stupid idea someone had that might just work against your triple Knights list."

That's how I normally test run new ideas/ lists when I'm not sure about the spending factor yet.

Now I'm wondering how viable mandrake spam would be vs. other armies also.
Any good conversion ideas for them? That would be a lot of finecast...
Edit: wracks with a head and arm swap would work I think? Maybe doomfire warlock heads?
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 14:17

Really, really well based 25mm bases.

No finecast, no models. They're being stealthy.

Cheap and hilarious!

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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 14:18

I'd want to say Hellions because of their D2 melee attacks but mathammer shows that the majority of their attacks will get crushed by the toughness and armor save of the knight. roughly 400 pts of Hellions will only cause some 8.5 wounds after shooting and charging, and that's even with +1 S from drugs. 10 wounds after they get the +1 to hit in melee.

The next thing I looked at was Incubi, -3 AP sounds really nice, especially since the Knight's invuln only works against ranged attacks. Lets say roughly 20 incubi, 4 squads of 5 to maximize klaivex chance for 3 damage.  Once again this works out to about 10 wounds from the charge, before +1 WS from PfP kicks in.

For Mandrakes. about 20 of them as well. 40 shots results in about 4.44 mortal wounds, 2.22 normal wounds. 6.66 overall (heh). about 8.3 if they charge in. 8.7 with PfP.

I really really want to say stick to S5 and above on this one, but goodness. Those knights are freakin tough! CALL IN THE ELDAR

*note* because the google drive with the leaks has been pulled down, i can't find a good image of the actual point values of our units so "roughly # of models" means you could probably get 1 or 2 more.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: vs. Knights   Thu Jun 29 2017, 15:40

The other great thing about the mandrakes is you could bring them down on turn 3, giving you a great chance at losing them fewest number of miniatures before end of game. Going second would even be a benefit in this instance as the enemy get the fewest possible number of shots at us
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