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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:49

When news about 8th first came out, I noticed a few people discussing the possibility of fielding armies with no transports that just massed Warriors (like a more elite version of the old IG Infantry armies).

I just wondered if anyone has actually tried such an army? If so, how did it do?
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 14:15

Tried a smaller game with just 1 venom. Does that count?
It did ok, I am unsure if that was just that game, or it usually works. I think we can limit our vehicles. We have some fast units anyway (10inch wyches, reavers, hellions). But against a WAAC army you will go down fast.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 14:43

Not with DE... I would be kinda ashamed to field a footslogging DE army. :-D Save for some beast circus or similar thing ofc.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 16:22

Not with Drukhari.

Our foot-sloggers are too weak.

For other armies, its a great idea. Spammed infantry is the way to go. But not for us.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 19:22

I completely disagree that our infantry is too weak. Guardsmen are no stronger or tougher. The problem is every other army in the game got decent buff commanders, sergeants and HQs. Ours are crap in comparison.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 19:24

@Hellstrom wrote:
I completely disagree that our infantry is too weak.  Guardsmen are no stronger or tougher.

Cheaper though. Wink

@Hellstrom wrote:
The problem is every other army in the game got decent buff commanders, sergeants and HQs.  Ours are crap in comparison.

That's a good point.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 19:25

I think we are not supposed to work like that and its good that the mechanic prevents us from such an unfluffy choice. But thats my personal opinion.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 22:23

I'm prefacing this by saying that I'm hopped up on pain meds and laid out in bed after getting a heavily impacted Wisdom Tooth surgically removed from my mouth.

If anything below comes out as overly stupid or poorly thought out; this is likely the reason.

I think aurynn hits the nail on the head here. We're really not meant to be a footslogging army, we have always been very mechanised. Even when our boats were wet cardboard and our armour was spiky tissue paper.

The absence of decent buffmanders in the Dark Eldar army is a shame, but on the other hand... As an Archon or Succubus; would you be lending aid to your potential usurpers?

The Archon "buff" is extremely "meh" though. As is the lack of ability to stack buffs or provide aide across the divides of Deldar society.

I think if each of our HQ's were given some buff that effected all Drukhari within a bubble in addition to their faction specific buff, it would feel a lot more rewarding.

And if they actually led into themselves, it'd be cool.

Archon: All Faction Keyword Drukhari Units within [bubble] gain +1Ld. All Faction Keyword <Kabal> Units within [bubble] may use the Archon's Ld.

Giving everyone Ld8 or 9 again, with other HQ's gaining 10, whilst Kabal units get to rock a Necron Ld10.
Or maybe it'd be nicer to move the Archon's buff to an area that actually has an effect that isn't done better by our base army rules.

Succubus: All Faction Keyword Drukhari Units within [bubble] may reroll '1's to hit in the Fight Phase. All Faction Keyword <Wych Cult> Units within [bubble] gain +1 Attack per model.

Giving a general buff to the output of everyone's attacks in CC, melds well with the PFP table turn 3 buff. And giving Wych Cult units an excuse to really throw themselves at the enemy to try and impress their Succubus.


Haemonculous: All Faction Keyword Drukhari Units within [bubble] may reroll failed 'Innured to Suffering' rolls. All Faction Keyword <Haemonculus Coven> Units within [bubble] gain +1 Toughness.

Gives everyone some increased survivability and makes Wracks more durable to S4, 5, 8 and 9 attacks. Whilst Talos and Cronos become as tough as some tanks.

Drazhar: All Faction Keyword Drukhari Units within [bubble] may reroll '1's to wound in the Fight Phase. All Faction Keyword <Incubi Shrine> Units within [bubble] may add '1' to their to Wound rolls in the Fight Phase.

Just seemed useful and cool. Looks mic when compared to a Troupe Masters buffs.

What I'm not sure of, is how much of a price hike this sort of change would justify.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 22:31

@Hellstrom wrote:
I completely disagree that our infantry is too weak.  Guardsmen are no stronger or tougher.
Only that Guardsmen come at almost half the price of a Kabalite Warrior...

@Ikol
Love it.
But for an Archon I would prefer something that can beef up firepower. We could really need something that beefs up our Warrior, Trueborn, Scourge or Ravager shooting.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 22:33

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
But for an Archon I would prefer something that can beef up firepower. We could really need something that beefs up our Warrior, Trueborn, Scourge or Ravager shooting.

Same. A buff to Ld - especially such a meagre one - is all but useless in our army.

Also 'use Archon's Ld' and '+1 Ld' amount to the exact same thing about 99% of the time.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:02

Yeah. And then we reach turn 4+ on our PFP table and no longer give a rat's fink about the morale phase anyway.

So perhaps the Archon's buff should be offensive then.


Archon: All Faction Keyword Drukhari within [bubble] may reroll '1's to Hit in the Shooting Phase. All Faction Keyword <Kabal> Units within [bubble] may add '1' to their to Hit rolls.

Though maybe that sort of flat buff is a bit to much, giving everyone BS2+ effectively.

Maybe give them rerolls to Wound (representing greater accuracy with the shots that hit, rather than greater ability to hit shots (which is already addressed by the general Drukhari buff.



The next thing to mention is characters:

Lelith and Urien.
I'd say they keep the same Drukhari buffs as their nameless counterparts, but do a slightly better job of the Faction specific buffs.

Maybe Lelith gives +2 Attacks? And Urien +2 Toughness?

With a rule that you pick the better buff when the character buffs overlap with the unnamed HQ's buff rather than stacking for Wyches with 4 Attacks and Toughness 7 Wracks.
Actually, the only ridiculous thing there is the T7 Wracks.

Maybe Urien can keep the Haemi buff, but have his Drukhari buff be "+1 to Innured to Suffering rolls."

Thoughts?

Also, meds are wierd. Feels like I'm drifting through honey, and my fingers are moving too slow.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:13

Ob, also, @Shredder, sorry for the double post, but you seem to have missed my intent there. Remember that models are effected by their own bubbles. So +1Ld gives the Archon Ld10 rather than Ld9, and I think Kabs and Wyches got nerfed down to base Ld7 this edition, whilst 'Sergeant models' were given the former baseline Ld of 8.

The difference between Ld7 and Ld10 can be significant in a unit that isn't 5 man MSU. Potentially 3 models.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:17

@Ikol wrote:
Ob, also, @Shredder, sorry for the double post, but you seem to have missed my intent there.  Remember that models are effected by their own bubbles.  So +1Ld gives the Archon Ld10 rather than Ld9, and I think Kabs and Wyches got nerfed down to base Ld7 this edition, whilst 'Sergeant models' were given the former baseline Ld of 8.

The difference between Ld7 and Ld10 can be significant in a unit that isn't 5 man MSU.  Potentially 3 models.

Ah, I had missed that. Even so, I'd like something more offensive. tongue

@Ikol wrote:
Yeah.  And then we reach turn 4+ on our PFP table and no longer give a rat's fink about the morale phase anyway.

So perhaps the Archon's buff should be offensive then.

Archon: All Faction Keyword Drukhari within [bubble] may reroll '1's to Hit in the Shooting Phase.  All Faction Keyword <Kabal> Units within [bubble] may add '1' to their to Hit rolls.

Though maybe that sort of flat buff is a bit to much, giving everyone BS2+ effectively.

Maybe give them rerolls to Wound (representing greater accuracy with the shots that hit, rather than greater ability to hit shots (which is already addressed by the general Drukhari buff.

Yeah, I'd give the Archon reroll 1s to hit for all Drukhari units, and maybe reroll 1s to wound for all Kabal units (within [Bubble]).

@Ikol wrote:
 And Urien +2 Toughness?

I've got an alternative suggestion for Haemonculi:

+1T for all <Coven> units within 6".
Sculptor of Flesh: At the beginning of your shooting phase, the Haemonculi may restore d3 wounds to one non-vehicle Drukhari unit within 3" (including himself). A unit may not be affected by this more than once each turn.

Urien has that too, but also has Master Haemonculus - When Urien uses his Sculptor of Flesh ability do not roll - instead the target automatically recovers 3 wounds (up to its maximum).

(Could also allow them to revive infantry models on 1 wound.)
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:24

Now that...

That is neat.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:46

If I could change our HQs the way I like I would introduce a tier system for our HQs, similar to the 5th edition Haemonculi.
Haemonculus < Ancient Haemonculus < Urien Rakarth
Succubus < Archite < Lelith
Archon < High Archon < Vect/Sythrac

This would give us a lot of flexibility and I would love to be able to choose whether I have an HQ that is a dedicated buff vector or only a beefy beat stick.

Furthermore, in the case of the Ancient Haemonculi and Urien Rakarth I would really give them an active ability like most factions have now. The possibility to use life leech and heal your troops or unleash an eldritch/hellraiser-esque horror device upon your enemies. In the case of Urien, he could use two abilities per turn.

Any opinions?
I thought I wouldn't make a huge post of a complete rework so the thread doesnt get too bloated.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 00:22

And back into the tier system:

Incubi> Klaivex> Heirarch(HQ)> Drazhar

I've read your Codex before, and if what you mean by "active abilities" is "Haemonculean pseudo psychic phase" then get yourself out of Commoragh this instant!
The Warp has no place in our realm of fascile beauty.


On a more serious note; I think giving our HQ's some tiering would be cool.  As would implementing the buff auras mentioned above.

I'll start with Haemonculi.

Haemonculus:
Mv:7", WS:3+, BS:3+, S:3, T:4, W:4, A:3, Ld:8, Saves: 6+/5++/6+++.
Coven units within 12" get +1 Toughness.
Comes with Haemonculous Tools, a Stinger Pistol (that's been fixed) and options for Tools of Torment and Weapons of Torture.
35points base.  45-50 points when kitted out.  The cheap beat stick option.


Haemonculus Ancient:
Mv:7", WS:2+, BS:2+, S3:, T:4, W:5, A:4, Ld:9 Saves: 6+/5++/5+++. Option to take a Clone Field for 4++.
Coven units within 12" get +1 Toughness.
Drukhari units within 12" get +1 to Innured to suffering rolls.
Has the Sculptor of Flesh special rule as outlined by @The_Shredder.
Can take one item similar to those on the Haemonculus Covens relic list.
Comes with Haemonculus Tools, Stinger Pistol and options for Tools of Torment and Weapons of Torture.
75 points base.  85-115 points kitted out.  What we have now~ish.  Tactical depth, warlord that is customisable with cool options.

Urien Rakarth:
Mv:7", WS:2+, BS:2+, S3:, T:5, W:6, A:4, Ld:10, Saves: 6+/4++/4+++.
Coven units within 12" get +1 Toughness.
Drukhari units within 12" get +1 to Innured to suffering rolls.
Urien gets an additional +1 to his Innured to Suffering rolls.
Has the Sculptor of Flesh special rule as outlined by @The_Shredder.  Is considered to always roll a 3.
Has his Casket of Flensing.  Once a game, 18" range, Assault 4d6, S1 AP0 D1 deals an additional Mortal wound on a 5+ to Wound.  Urien picks which models die.
Has Rending Scissors, an Ichor Injector, Stinger Pistol and Liquifier.
130-150points.  Not sure where exactly to place him points wise.  Can beat sticks, but can also buff your army a load, and keeps things alive.

Thoughts?

/Mods/ "should this be in rules development?"

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Last edited by Ikol on Fri Jun 30 2017, 03:36; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 03:32

Alright.  I'm bored, tired, unable to sleep and on break from Uni.  It's also just gone half 9 in the morning where I am right now, so let's go down the tiering rabbit hole a little further.

Grotesques:
Mv:8", WS:3+, BS:3+, S:5, T:5, W:5, A:3, Ld:8, Saves: 6+/5++/6+++
Flesh Gauntlet: Always wounds on a 3+, AP0, d3 damage.  Deals an extra Mortal wound on a 6+ to Wound.
Monstrous Cleaver: S+1, AP-2, 2 damage.
Has Power From Pain.
Latest Creations Table.  Similar to Combat Drugs.  Pick one thing per unit, same rules for how many can be chosen.  Same table.  Different resource pools.  Wych Cults are buying these amazing drugs FROM the Covens.  Why wouldn't a Haemonculus use them on his own creations?  It's not as though they poison them to weaken their customers, or shorten their lifespans.
Can take a Liquifier
35 points/model.  13 points for a Liquifier.

Acothyst:
Mv:7", WS:3+, BS:3+, S:3, T:4, W:3, A:3, Ld:8, Saves: 6+/5++/6+++
Haemonculus Tools.
Can take items from Tools of Torment and Weapons of Torture.
Latest Creations Table.
Power from Pain.
10 points/model.  15~30 points kitted out

Wracks:
Mv:7", WS:3+, BS:3+, S:3, T:4, W:2, A:2, Ld:7, Saves: 6+/5++/6+++
Haemonculus Tools
Power from Pain
Latest Creations Table.
Can take a Liquifier or Ossefactor for every 5 models in a unit.
10 points/model.  10~15 points per gun.

Talos:
Mv:8", WS:3+, BS:3+, S:6, T:6, W:9, A:5, Ld:10, Saves: 3+/5++/6+++
Comes with: Stinger Pods, Ichor Injector, Macroscalpel.
Can take: Splinter Cannons, Heat Lances, Haywire Blasters.
Can take: Flesh Gauntlets, Rending Scissors.
Power from Pain
Latest Creations Table (2 picks, can't double up).

Cronos:
Mv:8", WS:3+, BS:3+, S:6, T:6, W:8, A:4, Ld:10, Saves: 3+/5++/6+++
Comes with Spirit Leech Tendrils and Spirit Syphon.
Tendrils: +1 to Wound rolls against non-Vehicles, for every Wound inflicted, give something within 12" with the Power from Pain rule a Wound back (tally it up and distribute at the end of the turn).
Syphon: 12", Sx, AP0, Dmg1 Assault 2d3.  Automatic hits (flamer). Always wounds non-Vehicles on a 3+ (Poison with the same benefit as Spirit Tendrils).  For every Wound roll of a 6+, cause an additional Mortal Wound (Make up for complete lack of AP elsewhere).  Wounds caused add to the healing tally.
Can take a Spirit Vortex.
Vortex: Same as a Syphon, but 18" and not Auto-hit.
Power From Pain.
Latest Creations Table (2 Picks, can't double up).

Latest Creations Table:
1. +1 Innured to Suffering Roll
2. +1 Toughness.
3. +1 Wound.
4. +2" to Advance and Charge rolls.
5. +1 Strength.
6. +1 Attack.

Next up; "Tiered" Wych Cult units.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 03:50

Edit: Ignore me, didn't realize at first it was custom rules.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 05:13

Wych:
Mv:8", WS:3+, BS3+, S:3, T:3, W:1, A:2, Ld:7, Saves:6+/4++dodge/6+++
Wych Knife, Splinter Pistol and Plasma Grenades.
1 in 5 and 3 in 10 can replace Wych Knife and Splinter Pistol with Wych Cult Weapons.
Combat Drugs.
Power from Pain.
7 points per model.  9 points when kitted out.  13 points when upgraded.

Hekatrix:
Mv:8", WS:3+, BS3+, S:3, T:3, W:2, A:3, Ld:7, Saves:6+/4++dodge/6+++
Wych Knife: Melee, S:User, AP-1, Dmg:1
Splinter Pistol and Plasma Grenades.
May replace Wych Knife and Splinter Pistol with Wych Cult Weapons.  May replace Wych Knife with Agoniser or Power Sword.  May replace Splinter Pistol with Blast Pistol.  May take a Phantasm Grenade Launcher.
In the Fight Phase, a roll to Hit of 6+ causes an additional Wound with the same Damage, AP and abilities as the Melee weapon being used by this model.
Power from Pain.
Combat Drugs.
9 points for the stat line and rules, 11 points when kitted out.  28 points when upgraded fully.

Hekatrix Bloodbride
Mv:8", WS:3+, BS3+, S:3, T:3, W:2, A:3, Ld:7, Saves:6+/4++dodge/6+++
Wych Knife, Splinter Pistol and Plasma Grenades.
For every 5 models in the unit, 3 Bloodbrides may replace their Wych Knife and Splinter Pistol with Wych Cult Weapons.
In the Fight Phase, a roll to Hit of 6+ causes an additional Wound with the same Damage, AP and abilities as the Melee weapon being used by this model.
Power from Pain.
Combat Drugs.
9 points per stat line and rules, 11 points kitted out.  15points when upgraded.

Syren:
Mv:8", WS:2+, BS3+, S:3, T:3, W:3, A:4, Ld:8, Saves:6+/4++dodge/6+++
Wych Knife, Splinter Pistol and Plasma Grenades.
May replace Wych Knife and Splinter Pistol with Wych Cult Weapons.  May replace Wych Knife with Agoniser or Power Sword.  May replace Splinter Pistol with Blast Pistol.  May take a Phantasm Grenade Launcher.
In the Fight Phase, a roll to Hit of 6+ causes an additional Wound with the same Damage, AP and abilities as the Melee weapon being used by this model.
Power from Pain.
Combat Drugs
11 points for the stat line and rules. 13 points when kitted out.  30 points when fully upgraded.

Succubus:
WS:2+, BS:2+, S:3, T:3, W:5, A:5, Ld:9, Saves: 6+/4++/6+++
Archite Glaive, Splinter Pistol, Plasma Grenades.
May replace Splinter Pistol with Blast Pistol or Wych Cult Weapons.
May replace Archite Glaive with Agoniser or Power Sword.
May take Phantasm Grenade Launcher.
Power from Pain.
Combat Drugs.
All Faction Keyword Drukhari Units within 12" may reroll '1's to hit in the Fight Phase. All Faction Keyword <Wych Cult> Models within 12" gain +1 Attack.
72 points, 85 points kitted out.

Wych Cult Weapons:
Shardnet and Impaler: Melee, S+1, AP-1, Dmg2, Opponent suffers -1 on No Escape Rolls when engaged with this unit.  4 Points
Hydra Gauntlets: S user, AP-1, Dmg1, D3 Extra Attacks, you may reroll to Wound on any attacks made with this weapon.  4 Points
Razorflails: S user, AP-1, Dmg1, D3 Extra Attacks, opponent must reroll all successful Armour saves against this Weapon.  4 Points

Wych Knife: S user, AP-1, Dmg1.  1 Point
Splinter Pistol: Same as books,  1 Point
Blast Pistol: Same as books, 10 Points
Phantasm Grenade Launcher: Assault D3, S1, AP0, Dmg1, A unit hit by one or more Phantasm Grenade Launchers suffers -1Ld and must take a Morale test at the end of the turn, regardless of whether or not the Unit lost any models.  3 points.
Power Sword: same as books.  4 points.
Agoniser: same as books.  4 points.
Archite Glaive same as books.  6 Points.

Hellions, Reavers and Beasts next.

Also Bike and Board Succubi.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 05:15

Could we get back to topic please?

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 05:19

Oh.

Sorry, sure.

I'll just copy my ramblings and make a proper thread in the rules dev. Section.

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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 05:38

If you were to do an all infantry army. I would think that it would be kabal or Coven based. Wych cult units are all but useless for foot slogging. Maybe reavers, maybe hellions. But wyches, bloodbrides and Succubus are all no go IMO.

Imagine trying to get into DE or 40k like that though... those that made it would be monsters on the table.
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 05:55

Agreed.

4th Dimensional Wizard proposed an amusing footslogging list a while back, in which full sized Units of Kabalite Warriors and Trueborn decked out with Blasters, Dark Lances, Phantasm Grenade Launchers and Agonisers would sort of "stretch" out from a single Archon to fill the entire deployment zone. Before marching across the battlefield, stretching out as much as possible to grab every objective and killing units until they are statistically probable to suffer further losses from Morale, before moving on.

It seemed more Necron than anything truly Dark Eldar, but it was an amusing concept.

If you were to try and footslog Kabalites, then that sort of amorphous gunline would be the only way to go.


But if you were trying for a Covens list, then I think you'd need to run multiple Haemonculi (spread the Toughness buffs) with Wracks coming in units of 5's so that you have maximum versatility in your charging. Liquifiers would need to be spammed, both to defend against charges, and to give you a hope against flyers.

Grotesques could be bubble wrapped and escorted, to try and seem menacing, but I'm not sure how well they'd fare against something of competent CC stats. Their insanely low Wound count hurts them nearly as much as Toughness 6 hurts Talos.

The loss of AP2 equivalents on the Talos and Cronos makes them questionably worthless in CC, and I don't think the Cronos does enough in shooting or buffing to make up the points in another way, whilst nearly every possible load out on the Talos got nerfed into oblivion, leaving them gun platforms without guns, and beat sticks without sticks.

Infantry Foot slogging just doesn't seem the right way to play Deldar, no matter how I look at it.

Of course, if we go Beast packs (Bird Flocks) and Hellions, then we get some fun. But anything else, and you need those transports, Fliers and Vehicles.

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|Meavar
Wych
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 07:26

I am not sure footslogging is so impossible, although with vehicles we do clearly become better.

For around 1250 points you will have around 10 dark lances a healthy number of melee attacks and a healthy number of shots. You create a reasonably anti tank anker with the kabalites and trueborn, with a melee element of wracks

Take a unit or 2 of kabalites with a dark lance (below 200)
Take a few units of trueborn with double dark lances (below 200)
Take some hellions (200)
Take bunch of beasts (300)
Take some wyches (below 100)
Take HQs and a beastmaster (200)
Take some scourges with lances (150)

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Infantry Armies?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 07:30

@Ikol wrote:
I'm prefacing this by saying that I'm hopped up on pain meds and laid out in bed after getting a heavily impacted Wisdom Tooth surgically removed from my mouth.

I feel your pain. I had 3 of them removed at once last month. I just CBA coming to the dentist three times so I had him do all 3 at once... Thats the DE way... Twas exquisite! :-D

Sooo... I do feel your pain... I mean I really do... mmmmmmwahahahaha!!! :-D

As for the topic... I can imagine 2x Tantalus, HQ and beasthordes. Thats about the extent I am willing to go. :-D
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