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 What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:35

Yeah, Harlies are nasty this edition.

I love it!

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Britishgrotesque
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 23:35

That's the difference though, harlies cost twice as much and they hit harder, they are meant to be elite, while wyches, ignoring the fluff, are tarpit units you use to keep something busy while your hammer kills the rest
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 00:40

@aurynn wrote:
For the price of 10 mandrakes you can have a Dissie Ravager which kills cca 3 termies a turn without CC retaliation.

10 mandrakes might maybe kill 3 as well, but are exposed to 1 turn of shooting and/or charge as they won't probably make the charge from DS.

Mandrakes are an oddity. Their ability to dish MWs makes one want to target tough units with their shooting, but their CC is mediocre at best for the cost. As I said in other thread. We can get average 2MWs on a 190pts unit, where Chaos can get a Decimator for 150 pts with 4d3 MWs at range and without LOS... I do not believe we should be entering the MW contest. We do not have the means and all MW-capable units are expensive.

Maybe spamming the Drakes will yield different results, but I for one would be happy if my opponent spent 600 pts on Mandrakes.

I certainly wouldn't spam them, I only own 10. The models are awesome (despite being pain in the ass finecast), their lore is awesome, and I've always enjoyed their flexibility. The reason their such an oddity is they're a unit of generalists in an army of specialists.

They lose out to dissie ravagers in shooting, in point-for-point CC to most other CC units, and they don't pour enough MW to evaporate large targets. But nothing else in the book can fill so many different rolls as battle unfolds. They can apply pressure to unexpected parts of the battlefield, they can assassinate characters from behind, finish off a vehicle if the lances barely left it alive, they can baleblast one backfield unit, and tie up another. They're annoying to get rid of, and resource draining, they're expendable enough to be used as chaff, and fast enough to stay relevant.

No opponent wants to balloon out their deployment to restrict their options. No opponent wants to deal with mandrakes, they want to kill our boats. But they have to deal with the mandrakes first to take the pressure off. If they balloon out, it's that much easier to turn a flank or break the center.

DE have always lived and died (and lived again) by their ability to control ranges. You can take control by planting a unit on their doorstep whenever and wherever you want. Make them make hard decisions, not "which ravager do I shoot first?"

I totally understand they're not for everyone. They're not a mathematician's friend, and they don't belong in a toolbox. They're the weird combination of scalpel, wrench, and bouncy ball that appeals to my mischievous side Twisted Evil
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 01:30

True.

Very true, I love the description of them.

But even so, I wouldn't put them in our "top 3 Assault units".

I feel like that list belongs to specialists, which Mandrakes are not.

Maybe top 3 most versatile (with the other 2 being Razorwing Jetfighters and Razorwing Flocks)

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 02:30

Agreed.

I realized mid rant that I was way off topic, but I couldn't help but preach. I've tried so hard to get those little buggers to work for so long. I'm invested.

For army construction, I usually to just pile on bits and pieces and drag things down. Wracks, wyches, grotesques, mandrakes, and a couple HQs. Use the boats as a mobile fire base, then pile on isolated chunks. None of them are mind-blowing but mandrakes have always given me at least a giggle.

So they're definitely in the top 3 of the 4 units I use for assault. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 09:08

I tried 6 of them against death guard last game and they were utterly useless.
Maybe there are targets that are just too tough for them.

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 10:06

Is that 6 Reavers? or 6 Mandrakes?

Or 6 units of Mandrakes?

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 10:17

From the mathhammering I have done, our top 3 assault units (damage done per points):

1) Clawed Fiend + Beastmaster
2) Razorwing Flocks
3) Incubi

I am including the price of transports for the Incubi (along with other options like Wyches and Grotesques).

Against GEQ the Razorwing Flocks are the winners. Against Marines it is basically a three way tie, against anything heavier (Primaris Marines / Terminators or any vehicle), the Clawed Fiends pull ahead.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 11:08

One unit of 6 Mandrakes.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 12:16

I cant wait to try my new Claw Fiends, i got the Crypt Flayers box and made them into Claw Fiends, and i had Rat Ogre tails to spare too.


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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 14:25

Those look wicked, @Amishprn86!

You'll have to post the painted results when you get around to them.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 18:26

A question, which of our melee units is good at AT? Right now my answer is none of them, but I'd like to be proven wrong.

At best we seem to be able to chip wounds, but that is about it.
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 18:33

I dont melee tanks as DE, DE CC is AI.

DL's and Blasters for AT. We are one of the few armies that can pop tanks without trying in 8th ed. The other night i was able to kill 2 Storm Ravens in 1 turn, (2 Ravagers, a Voidraven and some 8 Blasters).

Now if you wanted to AT as Melee, then i would think Grots and Wyche Cults (drugs +1 Str) and Beasts Claw Fiends?

Anything that is S4 mass with AP or multi damage (S4 base hellions, Claw Fiends, Grots). But its an up hill battle for sure.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:12

Double Succubus with Archite Glaives and other Wych Cult units (Hellions) to allow the Succubi to take Strength drugs.

Though that will only help against Toughness 6, though.

Damage distribution is WIERD this edition.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:14

Yeah, I've found anything you are wounding on 5's takes a lot of attacks to cut through the wounds of vehicle, even if you have the AP (e.g., incubi).

I haven't done the statistics, but from that point of view it may be preferable to have something like razorwing flocks against vehicles, wounding on 6's, but with significantly more attacks.
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:17

I really want to find a problem where the most point-efficient solution isn't "Birds" or "Craftworlders".

Please arbitrary gods of mathematical manipulation!

Please!

lol!

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:21

I'm not advocating mass birds, and even when GW double the cost of them, it still may be the right answer here and as a one off unit for screening.

A unit of 12 is still 48 wounds to choke through that blocks deep striking nasties and, per this example, may be able to put enough 6s out to knock down a vehicle if need be.

I don't have a full theory, but I have similar thoughts about lasguns and raiders. Previously, lasguns were not a threat. Last night, I lost 4-5 hull points to lasguns on a raider carrying a cc unit. Not insta-gib, but combined with more light AT it brought the raider down.

A 5++ in that situation is great for potentially saving a d6 wound shot. But law of averages catches up with you with enough lasgun shots.
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:26

Remember the 4+ save you get.

And yeah, with everything being able to hurt everything, spam lists get to reap the benefits of the D6 to a degree of ridiculousness thus far unseen in 40K.

It makes blob Guard and Nids viable again (which is great!) but also opens up gaping problems when things are made too cheap. (Which, in our case, Razorwing's have been).

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:38

Again Clawed Fiends. S5 wounds anything on 5+, -1 AP and D2
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 19:50

So... (1/2)*(1/3)*(1/2)*2
=(hits)*(wounds)*(saved assuming 3+)*Dmg
=0.1666666... wounds per attack.
Substitute in 5 Attacks and 12 points a model, that gives us just over 14.4 points per Wound against a toughness 6+ thing with a 3+ Armour save or 4++.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Fri Jun 30 2017, 22:10

Which is the best ratio you can get even counting DLs...
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 00:17

Noted. Now to figure out how to model them (already using crypt fiends/vargheists for grots!)
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 04:58

sweet jesus they're only 12 points a pop now? How did I not notice that. Time to make a new investment.

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Sat Jul 01 2017, 06:09

That's because they are 32 points not 12...
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