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 What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 16:59

Just looking for a pulse on what people feel is the best overall assault units in 8th.

CC seems more important in 8th, and it's there is no longer a point an click grot formation available.

My own feeling is:

1. Incubi: 3+ save, good ap modifier, good number of attacks (so good they make me think of using Drazhar)
2. Succubus: Archite glave makes str 5 with -3ap (the minus 1 gets countered by PFP on Turn 3+), reroll 1s to hit, no escape, 4+ invul all the time, choose your drugs
3. Grots: Flesh gauntlet big bugs, cleaver for everything else

For the grots here is some math that influenced me based on a single grot

Flesh Guant averages turn 2, 4 attacks (33% of wounds causes an extra unsaved prior to saves)
TEQ: 0.66 unsaved
MEQ: 0.88 unsaved
GEG: 1.11 unsaved
Big Bug (T6+ 3+ save): 0.88 unsaved

Cleaver averages turn 2, 5 attacks - 1 ap
TEQ: 0.74 unsaved
MEQ: 1.11 unsaved
GEG: 1.48 unsaved
Big Bug (T6+ 3+ save): 0.56 unsaved

Electro whip turn 2, 4 attacks
TEQ: 1.33 unsaved
MEQ: 1.78 unsaved
GEG: 2.67 unsaved
Big Bug (T6+ 3+ save): 1.78 unsaved

Incubi (who is half the cost of a grot!) turn 2, 3 attack
TEQ: 0.66 unsaved
MEQ: 0.88 unsaved
GEG: 1.33 unsaved
Big Bug (T6-7 3+ save): 0.56 unsaved

I specified turn 2, since on 3+ we get +1 to hit

Grots may not be as good as last edition but so far they have been decent, I think having a succubus share a raider with them is still a good idea (since wyches are still in that we are having a fun silly game right with lots of beer category).

What do you guys think? are these are top 3? are they in the right order?

Thank you

EDIT: left off big bug for incubi, also small note that it may be a good idea to drop the flesh gauntlets for liquifiers where points allow.

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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 17:19

I like this ordering, though I like grots and incubi for different reasons.

This game has always been about applying the right unit to the right target. In 7th, I've felt that to be true more for shooting units than assault units, purely because of the requirements for an assault unit to even barely function (e.g., fast enough, tough enough to get in, hits at initiative, does enough damage to matter).

As a result, 7th ed assault units were more likely to either be totally dominant destroy everything units, or were deliberately chaff if they were cheap enough.

These days, more units are viable at assault, and thus choosing targets matters. As a result, I like incubi for some things, and grots for another.

For example, incubi are great, but I don't want them against something with a good invuln. For that I want grots or maybe wyches/wracks. You've also described some scenarios above, which I also agree with.

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Rabblerouser
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 17:49

Ur-Ghuls are worth a look. 6 Attacks on the charge, re-rolling misses if there's an Archon nearby. I didn't calculate all four targets, but against GEQ they outdo all of the options you listed for sure. The Lhamean is likely a good option for big bugs given it wounds on a 2+ and can cause bonus mortal wounds, but it might be less efficient than Grotesques overall. In general I think the Court hasn't gotten the attention it deserves thus far as it seems like all four choices might have their niche, but I need to sit down and actually math some things out to know for sure.
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 18:06

The character nature of the court also makes it a fundamentally different option.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 18:27

Succubus
Incubi
Hellions

choices made Due to cost, effectiveness, damage output potential and movement.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 20:35

Offensively or overall? Counting in delivery methods?
Offensively I think best are the Clawed Fiends with rerolls from Beastmaster. They have their weakness in multiwound S6+ weapons though. Not counting supercheese like giant flockherds.
Second... hmmm... Ur-Ghuls - similar to Clawed Fiends but they are Characters, so untargettable with some clever play.
Third... Incubi/Brides/Hellions - depends on rerolls, target and particular situation. They are third as they all need either luck or delivery.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 21:51

Mandrakes are a possibility to, I need to double check and make sure but I think their -1 to hit also applies to cc attacks. I would encourage a look at the rules in this case as I'm about 30% sure I'm wrong on this but if their -1 to hit also applies to cc attacks then charging a power fist unit or equivalent ( any weapon the makes you hit with a -1 to hit) would be more then hilarious.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 22:58

@Archon_91 Mandrakes -1 says "All attacks" not just shooting so that is nice

@aurynn I was thinking more offensive as counter assault is a very different role, clawed fiend is interesting

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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Wed Jun 28 2017, 23:04

So then my idea of running them into powerfists is pretty funny as they would have to hit on a 5+ or a 4+ for characters regardless I would probably shoot them a bit first before doing that but Mandrake's got some major loving this edition and I'm thinking of getting 3x10 squads of them simply because I've always liked them but could never bring myself to buy more then the 10 I have right now
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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:16

I've been using 10 mandrakes in nearly every list since 5th edition. I used to jump baron sathonyx out of a double WWP haemonculus/grotesque blob, with a pain token in tow, into infiltrating mandrakes just to give the mandrakes their shooting attack. Good gawd they were hard to use back then.

They are awesome now! Just really cost effective, backline harassers. I used 2 squads of 5 yesterday and they blew up a trukk with their combined fire (gotta love mortal wounds), then one charged the boyz inside and killed them. The other went on to kill 2 units of grots in a turn by shooting one up, then charging the other to make them both pop. The remaining 4 were headed for 2 big guns and more grots when we ran out of time.

Good volume of fire, mortal wounds, quality CC potential, hard to hit, and perfect placement make them little shadowy rock stars.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 06:25

For the price of 10 mandrakes you can have a Dissie Ravager which kills cca 3 termies a turn without CC retaliation.

10 mandrakes might maybe kill 3 as well, but are exposed to 1 turn of shooting and/or charge as they won't probably make the charge from DS.

Mandrakes are an oddity. Their ability to dish MWs makes one want to target tough units with their shooting, but their CC is mediocre at best for the cost. As I said in other thread. We can get average 2MWs on a 190pts unit, where Chaos can get a Decimator for 150 pts with 4d3 MWs at range and without LOS... I do not believe we should be entering the MW contest. We do not have the means and all MW-capable units are expensive.

Maybe spamming the Drakes will yield different results, but I for one would be happy if my opponent spent 600 pts on Mandrakes.


Last edited by aurynn on Thu Jun 29 2017, 07:09; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 07:05

MV's? you mean MW's? Mortal Wounds

I like Mandrakes but they are very hit r miss for me, ive played 10 (2x5) for 4 games and they didnt live up to their points, IMO they are over costed

As for Melee goes I would like to see math with Claw Fiend as well (Im getting 3 of them, i order the Bats/Ghoul undead 3 box set to convert).

Like others said you need the right tools now, if your fighting low Str Hoards then Wracks/Grots are better (due to they need 5's or 6's to wound and you get 5++/6+++ also you dont really need ap but number of attacks)

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 07:09

@amishprn86 - ofc. Didnt have coffee yet. :-D Corrected now. :-D

Anyway - for little over 190 pts you can have like 5 Clawed fiends and a Beastmaster, who will arguably do better job against everything.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 10:01

I used 6 Mandrakes against death guard and I'm not impressed. I'd rather upgrade some stuff or try to take a single foot slogging Warrior unit with a lance in ruins now.

Maybe I should give them another chance. I rolled very poorly.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 10:55

Used Incubi last night and they looked pretty impressive, although they only got to fight one combat.

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Toffeehammer
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 11:48

In my last game my incubi managed to really get stuck in and sliced almost five times their unit size worth of space marines into power confetti without losing a single model. They sure haven't put on a show like that in any past editions. Having an archon with a PGL with them seemed to be pretty helpful.

Hellions look really good on paper too but I've never been the biggest fan on the models.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 12:01

Toffeehammer wrote:
Hellions look really good on paper too but I've never been the biggest fan on the models.

Go wash your mouth now >Sad
(Sorry I love the models)

But yes incubi are great, if you can get them against the right enemy/ where they need to be they really kill stuff.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 13:11

Well I have to kinda agree with both @|Meavar and @Toffeehammer... :-D
I like the models...
But I hate that they are wannabe Green Goblin junkies.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 18:05

Did some math on the clawed fiends average unsaved wounds from a single model

4 attacks (any turn since they don't benefit from PFP)

MEQ: 0.66
TEQ: 0.89 (due to 2 damage)
GEG: 0.89
Big Bug (T6+ 3+ save): 0.667

4 attacks in Beast Master bubble

MEQ: 1.00
TEQ: 1.33 (due to 2 damage)
GEG: 1.33
Big Bug (T6+ 3+ save): 1.00

Looks like grots do slightly more damage than Clawed fiends against single wound models even with the Beast Master bubble, and the flesh gaunts fall right between the Clawed fiend without the bubble and with on the big bugs. Clawed fiends shine against TEQ in beast master bubble.

EDIT:
Turn 3 + Grots (PFP +1 hit)
Big Bug: 1.16 (Gaunt)
TEQ: 0.92 (Cleaver
MEQ: 1.39
GEG: 1.85

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Last edited by Seshiru on Thu Jun 29 2017, 18:13; edited 1 time in total
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 18:09

I love how we don't really have a best assault unit. :-D Balaaaaance!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 20:58

Is it tho? That means we dont really have hard CC counters, Incubi should be leaps and bounds better vs MEQ where Grots should be against GEQ etc.. like noticeable differences that matters.

At least thats how i feel.

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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 21:04

I mean, in pure killiness maybe it doesn't really shine through. But unless you are also factoring ability to take a hit back (and how much damage the hit back causes), you're not getting the whole story.

Grots care a lot about getting hit by high damage weapons, but don't care about MEQ power weapons at all.

Incubi care about power weapons, but don't care about high damage.

Just two examples, but important to the story.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 21:14

Well taking into account the respective toughnesses and diminishing of offensive power with casualties, etc, I think all choices have advantages and disadvantages. Which makes them pretty equal IMO.

EDIT: Ninjaed by Woozl. :-) Cheers.
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 21:21

This is actually why I like wyches this edition in a cc-oriented list. They're great for specifically tying up in combat some unit that you don't want heroically intervening into your grots/incubi and smashing them.

A close combat this edition is a little bit like a black hole in that every time a combat occurs, anything nearby can opt to jump in and swing first, as dogpiling attacks is often times better than keeping the purely shooty shooting and the purely stabby stabbing. Characters, particularly, are designed this way. They sit around buffing, and jump in opportunistically.

A super cheap 4++ with 1 wound is a great way to absorb dangerous characters or other intervening units. It keeps the fights on your terms. Ideally, you then swing the combat you wanted, hold firm on the combat you didn't and come out on top next combat phase or thereafter.

This is also how you can clear out the chaff of a character.

Step 1: charge killy unit into chaff in front of a character
Step 2: charge meatshield unit (wyches, wracks), into character, maybe also the chaff as well
Step 3: last through 2 rounds of combat (not necessarily a given, but if the meatshield unit dies on the 2nd combat, that's fine)
Step 4: win or exit out of combat with chaff with your killy unit, blow the f*** out of unshielded character with lances and poison.
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PostSubject: Re: What's our top 3 assault units in 8th?   Thu Jun 29 2017, 21:32

I'll just stick to my Harlequins for CC, they hit hard AF has a 4++ and -1 to wound with my Shadowseer Wink

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