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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 09:50

@CptMetal wrote:
Why does everyone wants to use Disintegrator Ravager?
I used Disintegrator on a plane against death guard and it was utterly useless.

Even when shooting that drone I was only wounding on 5+.
Those guns did nearly nothing the whole game Sad

I ran a Dissie Razorwing against Chaos Marines a while ago and it performed jaw-droppingly well. It probably accounted for about 20% of the enemy's army by itself. Haven't had a chance to try a DL Razorwing, though, so that might perform even better.

The thing about Dissies is to remember to use them in their intended role- always fire them after your Dark Lances, in case your lances roll really well on damage. Dissies are better for taking out wounded monsters or tanks than Lances are, since the damage is much more consistent and less swingy, no use firing a Dark Lance at something with 2 wounds left when you may well roll a 1 and leave it alive, or roll a 6 and waste that extra damage. I'd fire a Dissie Ravager over a DL Ravager against any vehicle or monster with 4 or fewer wounds left, as a (very) rough guideline.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 10:08

@CptMetal wrote:
Why does everyone wants to use Disintegrator Ravager?
I used Disintegrator on a plane against death guard and it was utterly useless.

Even when shooting that drone I was only wounding on 5+.
Those guns did nearly nothing the whole game Sad

I think everyone who is used to face Termies, Bikers, 4++ vehicles, etc, will use Dissies gladly.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 10:15

Dissies optimal targets are, as @mynamelegend states, big things that are nearly dead, and Units of multi-wound, high save models.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 12:08

@CptMetal wrote:
Why does everyone wants to use Disintegrator Ravager?
I used Disintegrator on a plane against death guard and it was utterly useless.

Even when shooting that drone I was only wounding on 5+.
Those guns did nearly nothing the whole game Sad

I'm not for mathammer, but I've done this thought:

3 DarkLances
Against T8+: 3 shots, 2 in, 1 wound, 1D6 damage
Against T6-7: 2 in, 1-2 in (not always 2), 1 D6 damage
Against Infantry: it helps

3 Disintegrators
Against T8+: 9 shots, 6 in, 2 in, normally he will save at 5+ or worse so it will be nearly 2 inside, sometimes 1 but I can get it. 4 damage (rarely 2)
Against T6-7: the same.
Against Infatry: USELESS


So...it's a pretty basic thought but considering that DE doesn't really struggle against multiple wounds (we have a LOT of multiple damage weapons), but we struggle against blobs of infantries, and considering that this edition push onto the blobs direction....i prefer DissiRavager overall.

Overall. I'm considering the codex and my list. Of course if I see that I'm struggle against multiple wounds, I will considering DL Ravager. But for now, I don't really care too much about multiple wounds more that multiple 1wound models.


Last edited by Cerve on Fri Jun 30 2017, 12:27; edited 1 time in total
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 12:14

r? you mean t for toughness? and you mean Disintegrators are better against infantry?

Dis cannons are good against infantry, like you said but your chart says r's and useless lol.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 12:27

@amishprn86 wrote:
r? you mean t for toughness? and you mean Disintegrators are better against infantry?

Dis cannons are good against infantry, like you said but your chart says r's and useless lol.

Yeah, T...I was writing in Italian lol
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 12:30

np at all.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 13:26

Maybe I just had a different experience because I fought death guard.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 13:37

@CptMetal wrote:
Maybe I just had a different experience because I fought death guard.

Death Guard should run Poxwalkers. Dissy ravager still usefull against them and Plague marines anyway. What's your struggle?
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 14:15

Helping out cerve with his mathhammer:
3+ save used

DL
T8: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1 wound, 1 unsaved, 3.5 damage
T5-7: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1.333 wound, 1.333 unsaved, 4.667 damage
T1-4: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1.666 wound, 1.666 unsaved, 5.833 damage

Dissie
T6-9: 9 shots, 6 hit, 2 wounds, 1.666 unsaved, 3.333 damage
T5: 9 shots, 6 hit, 3 wounds, 2.5 unsaved, 5 damage
T3-4: 9 shots, 6 hit, 4 wounds, 3.333 unsaved, 6.666 damage

So the dissie does almost the same against multi wound T8, way less against multi wound t6and 7 but but more against 5 and below multiwound and all single wound creatures.

Pretty much as we all expected, except perhaps t8. That was a surprise.

Edit: can't read my own numbers.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 14:37

@LordSplata wrote:
Helping out cerve with his mathhammer:
3+ save used

DL
T8: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1 wound, 1 unsaved, 3.5 damage
T5-7: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1.333 wound, 1.333 unsaved, 4.667 damage
T1-4: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1.666 wound, 1.666 unsaved, 5.833 damage

Dissie
T6-9: 9 shots, 6 hit, 2 wounds, 1.666 unsaved, 3.333 damage
T5: 9 shots, 6 hit, 3 wounds, 2.5 unsaved, 5 damage
T3-4: 9 shots, 6 hit, 4 wounds, 3.333 unsaved, 6.666 damage

So the dissie does almost the same against multi wound T8, way less against multi wound t6and 7 but but more against 5 and below multiwound and all single wound creatures.

Pretty much as we all expected, except perhaps t8. That was a surprise.

Edit: can't read my own numbers.

Jeah but a lot of those have an invurnerable save as well.
And then suddenly the dissie comes out on top again against t8 and t5 (still a minor loss against t6-7)
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Fri Jun 30 2017, 23:54

Yeah, invuls make weight of fire rather ap so much better. Plus the whole in the numbers above is if you have a 2 wound creaturelike a lot of t5and t6 are then the dissie is better because you lose the roll a 1 situation and because unsaved wounds become the benchmark to measure against
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sat Jul 01 2017, 00:39

Does everyone else use their shooting re-roll on the damage roll for a dark lance? It probably doesn't shift the damage numbers too significantly but it does shift it.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sat Jul 01 2017, 06:54

I do. It does shift the "1" which makes the DL look like watergun into (usually) something that is several times better. Best use of rerolls IMO as it directly multiplies the result and not only add a marginal increase in the line of possible failures.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sat Jul 01 2017, 10:18

Agreed with aurynn, it takes a result of 1 and shifts it to a 3.5 average. 2.5 wounds better, which is a lot of damage.

Perhaps a liquifier (or twin liquifier) ap roll if enough wounds have been dealt, that might be a good.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sat Jul 01 2017, 10:24

Actually from statistic point of view the reroll shifts it into nearly 4.5 average. Generally speaking it is worth to reroll any 1 and 2.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sat Jul 01 2017, 10:37

@aurynn wrote:
I do. It does shift the "1" which makes the DL look like watergun into (usually) something that is several times better. Best use of rerolls IMO as it directly multiplies the result and not only add a marginal increase in the line of possible failures.

I used 6 command points in my last game, 4 of which were to re-roll 1's on a damage roll.

Every single re-roll came up '1'. Mad

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sat Jul 01 2017, 10:44

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@aurynn wrote:
I do. It does shift the "1" which makes the DL look like watergun into (usually) something that is several times better. Best use of rerolls IMO as it directly multiplies the result and not only add a marginal increase in the line of possible failures.

I used 6 command points in my last game, 4 of which were to re-roll 1's on a damage roll.

Every single re-roll came up '1'. Mad
We are in the Dark City where other people's misfortunes are something to laugh at, so allow me to ROFL at that. Very Happy Laughing lol!

However... I have to confess that my last game I used 2 and they came up as 2 and 1...
Nevertheless this remains the best use of rerolls even though we both are being evaded by the "bloomin' luck".

Well Lelith's invul is another reroll I like to make.

And Charge rolls... *sigh*
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 04:27

@aurynn wrote:
Actually from statistic point of view the reroll shifts it into nearly 4.5 average. Generally speaking it is worth to reroll any 1 and 2.

While you are right that an Melta shot has this as an average of damage, this is because you always roll the second damage die. In our case because the second die is a choice it changes the odds significantly.

For instance if you only re roll 1's because you don't want to waste your re roll this phase, then the outcomes are 1=3.5 and 2..6=2..6, or an average of only 3.91 damage, however the change on average from the 1 you rolled (to the only same or better reroll) is 3.5, which is 2.5 better.
Rerolling 1's and 2'5 gives an average of 4.16 (0.66 better)

The best thing about rerolling the 1's, and lesser extent the 2's, is the low probability of rolling a 1 (1 in 36), making it a much more consistent weapon.
Unless you are count adhemar in which case you need to prepare more sacrifices to the dice gods!
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 05:15

Up to what Toughness and armor save would you run your Hellions against? Also include what drug you'd take them with.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 05:38

Well hellions dont do good against anything with 2+/3+ armor save unless its not many wounds (5-8 wounds max) anything 2/3+ save with 8+ wounds you'll only do like 2-4 (if you lucky 6) damage at the most.

I have charged against 2-4 wounds left on Rhinos/Skimmers and that works fine.

I try to use mine tho as a shock melee unit to kill things out side of LoS (I make sure to have at least 1 counter to out of LoS units like Biovores etc..) not having to see wha you charge and you cant be overwatch on a fast moving unit can really hurt an opponent, especially ones with artillery, multi gun platforms (Orcs, Nids, Tau) or just Eldar with a Character + Exarch (they are multi wounds), like a unit of Dark Reapers with an Exarch and Warlock.


About Toughness itself
Sense they are S3 with a +1 weapon, you can give them +1s Drug for a S5, so anything T5 is fine.
ALOT of skimmers are T5, sense we can move 14" and charge 7"+re-roll (23" average) We can chase down skimmers. This is another reason why i like Hellions.


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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 06:00

How many hellions is the sweet spot?

I think there are cases for just about all unit sizes but I can't shake the feeling that 15 is where you want them

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 06:21

Really appreciate the insight amishprn86. Really 8th edition specific!
Problem is, now I really want some hellions!
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 06:49

I've only taken 10 so far b.c thats how many fit into a raider lol also thats how many i have, i ordered 1 more box and my local owner order 2 boxes and someone else order 1... they are sold out for a bit Evil or Very Mad

I was thinking of 2, 5 mans in a raider but then i have to pick 2 different drugs and i like the ability to pick either Attack or Str on a full unit to fit my needs much better.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Sun Jul 02 2017, 15:32

You put them inside a raider?

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