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Dread Serpent
Slave
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PostSubject: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 06:13

Hellions seem pretty okay on paper to me. I was wondering if anyone had any recent 8th edition experience with them? I've been considering a large squad in a Tantalus which can get them across the board so they can jump out turn 2 and go hunting devastors and other heavy weapons.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 06:50

Ive used 10 in a raider a few times, i like them as more in a raider sense you can still fire out of it.

I just like the fact they are melee but can shoot some poison for a turn or 2.

They are better now for sure, but they still dont have AP sadly, so the 2D is kinda wasted many times, tho against some units its still good, like Nids Biovores, 4+ save and 4w, 2 wound hits go through and you have 1 dead Biovore. I try to use them for those type of jobs.

If i played in a tournament i wouldnt take them.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 07:00

I use them and love them.
Now 2 of my regular opponents are Nids (great to kill warriors and other synapse) and orks (quite some multiple wound guys and few armour saves).
Their mobility is great, their damage output is very nice (3s4 or2s5 attacks, on a 2+ with rerolls is awesome) And as amish mentioned they still have a decent amount of shooting.
Their major drawback is their vurnerability to return fire/attacks.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 07:18

They are fast, can do descent damage with shooting and against high wounds/low save opponents they are efficient in CC too.

Sadly they cant take blasters/heatlances and if the enemy looks at them they turn to a pink mist.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:49

They simply are our best unit vs screen and cheap infantry. And helps with veichles too.

I run lists with the 6 FA detatchment and is really easy to get 7+ drugs units in list. So you can play a lot of units with the same drug.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:51

I use Razorwings as a cheap and fast Screen Smile

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 11:28

@Cerve wrote:
They simply are our best unit vs screen and cheap infantry. And helps with veichles too.

I run lists with the 6 FA detatchment and is really easy to get 7+ drugs units in list. So you can play a lot of units with the same drug.

You think they are good against cheap infantry? Their cost in cheap infantry will tear them apart.
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:07

The reason why they work (sort of) against cheap infantry is their mobility and their ability to boot shoot and fight quite well.
Against cheap infantry everything but cheap infantry sucks, and let's be honest our cheapest infantry is worse (because we have little character support) and more expensive then guardsmen veterans. the only thing that comes close is birds, but the lack of guns on them gives the same problem why hellions still sort of work.
Which means we cannot win a normal shootout. On the other hand most buffs to those cheap infantry are done by reasonably cheap leaders. Hellions excell at killing cheap (aka not very well armored) leaders. They have the move to reach them quite often and deal double wounds. Thus while alone hellions will not win it against cheap infantry, they can often help kill the support that makes the infantry so dangerous in the first place.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:26

@amishprn86 wrote:
I use Razorwings as a cheap and fast Screen Smile

Me too
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:32

@aurynn wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
They simply are our best unit vs screen and cheap infantry. And helps with veichles too.

I run lists with the 6 FA detatchment and is really easy to get 7+ drugs units in list. So you can play a lot of units with the same drug.

You think they are good against cheap infantry? Their cost in cheap infantry will tear them apart.

I mean that I find them a reliable tool against cheap units. They can shoot from their transport. When they disembark they can shoot and assault. And if you coordinate well your assaults, I found them even hard enough to disengage, shoot and assault again.
They have great mobility, helps with the drugs count (I had 3 units of them all with +1Toughtness in one of my last games), drugs helps to switch their role at the start of the game (and not when you're build the list).
They can hit hard light units without spending, you know, 2-3 Venoms over it, or multiple units.

For now, I like them. I'm using the 6FA Detatchment, using Hellions as my "troop" mandatory, and I'm going well with.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:35

I didnt try them in transports. Should give it a try... Since I was very disappointed by Reavers...

But so far I would take scourges over hellions anyday. Cheaper = more wounds per points paid, better armoured, only slightly worse performance against cheap infantry.

Those D2 weapons on Hellions are not worth much if you either need to spend 65-100 points to protect them in transport or expose them to enemy sneezing which kills them. But small units in Venom might be worth a try.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 13:16

Yeah i hate our Reavers now..... I mean 100% hate them.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:12

Its the pricing. And Offense/Defense ratio. Defensively they are fine, but in an army that needs offense above all else, they are... worthless. Each model has offensive potential of an elite 1W infantry, but you pay double for fielding it due to the wounds and toughness. I wouldnt even pay attention to them seeing them on the other side of the table. They are not dangerous. If they are tooled to max, they are so easy to take down that you can take a big chunk of enemy's army easily. For these points if they had at least a little nastier offense, that would be another matter.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:13

They need to be able to take a weapon per.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:16

Mmmm... perhaps. That would be consistent with the high-risk high-reward style that DE should have. But I would probably go with Grav-talons on each rather than guns. They are Cult, make them bloody.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:21

Well, that be cooler, all bikes can have either or bike upgrade rather than shooting weapons and keep the shooting weapon 1 per 3.

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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:25

Sounds cool. Make them an elite expensive platform that must take risk but can deal out some nasty mortal wounds.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:28

Its still nothing special. To make them dangerous the MV would have to be on 3+ and have HnR.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:29

If bladevanes had the grav-talon rules they'd probably be worth the points. I'm going to try a small unit this evening mainly cos I needed a Fast choice and didn't have many points to spend.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:37

I take it back... That wouldn't cut it in a game where 150 pts Decimator deals 4d3 MVs at range and "does not have to look"... yea... I am going to play against those soon... Srsly FW...
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 15:16

Forgeworld: It's okay that our rules are absurd because our models are expensive. Hey, you, I see you there! Stop googling "pay to win" right now!
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 15:23

About Reavers I must come back to my judgment: they works!
I tried them twice, and actually they where able to kill characters pretty well. They made me Ghazkull after his first charge. They were able to sneak near to him, shoot 3 Heat Lances and then charge with Talons: dead Ghazkull before any attempt to fight.

yep they are expensive, but they soak a good amount of dmg. On 9 Reavers, you only have 3(4) valuable models, so you can lost 12 T5 wounds before lose some of their potential. I used used them for carefully charges until an enemy char will "expose". They look great as harrasment unit, and Character assassins too.

My apologyze for my previus doubts.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 15:28

Here is my Problem with that, 9 with 3 HL's is 345ps, for 345ps I can take 2 Ravagers.

Lets compare them;
Ravager: T6, 20 wounds and 6 s8 Lances
Reavers: T5, 18 wounds and 3 s6 Lances

I also save 35pts

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 15:29

Sorry but if someone let a unit of 9+ Reavers "sneak up" on someone like Ghazghkull and didn't have other units protecting him then that's just bad play on their part. It doesn't make Reavers any better!

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Hellions    Wed Jun 28 2017, 16:08

I agree. People often forget that they can sneak Ravagers almost as well as Reavers and assasinate characters with either lances or dissies.
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