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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Tue Jun 27 2017, 23:14

I've seen people take these everywhere possible, but I haven't yet managed to get a game of 8th with a list that included them.

Are they actually effective, or is it just a case of 'they're so cheap you might as well take them on the off chance they're useful'?
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 00:19

I think the leadership reduction is genuinely brilliant to be honest. The fact that a 3 point upgrade adds more (albeit inconsistent) shots to my unit and increases the chance that I destroy units in moral is too good to pass up. Just a quick example say you have a unit like this
5 Kabalites
-Blaster
-Pgl
Venom

At rapid fire range against marines this squad averages roughly 2.5 wounds. We'll say 2 for ease. Now, if that unit has leadership 8, you don't hurt them with moral. If the PGL reduced them to 7 however this gives you a 16% chance to remove another model. Or effectively add 50% to the damage you just did. This might seem insignificant, but the more damage you do, the more -1 leadership effects the amount of models lost. Say you hit the same MEQ squad with two of these units and total 5 wounds. Reducing that unit to leadership seven now gives you 66% chance to remove 1 or more models, up to an extra 4! And with the advent of split fire, you can throw this debuff around very easily.
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FuelDrop
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 00:50

Don't forget you can fire both the PGL and another non-pistol weapon at the same time.

However, were it not so cheap I wouldn't bother with it. Leadership is a mugs game in this edition.

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 05:40

Pair PGL with Runes of Battle: Horrify from Hemlock and Hemlocks own aura and the enemy is looking at -3 morale, now that is juicy.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 07:27

I fired a PGL once in the game I played last week and it effectively killed a Death Guard. I'd say that was 3 points well spent!

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 07:50

I really think its worth the pts.
I use about 4 at 2000pts usually = 12pts.

Moral is a thing.
A -1 Ld can mean a model or extra model is removed every test every turn.
The extra shooting is nice.
Once a battle it will kill a muhreen or 2 just with the D3 S1 shots. Very Happy
It always pays for itself.

Most importantly it pisses off my buddies and I find it very fun to use.  Laughing
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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 08:56

Excuse my inexperience, but now it can work on fearless things too ?
I used to have a Ld reduction based army in the 7th, but it was useless versus half enemies.

It's now a 'legit' choice vs everything ? Smile

IMO it's worth taking some as it's so cheap and can be pretty effective with an opponant bad roll ^^

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 09:34

Fearless in 8e generally means immune to Morale so the PGL will have no effect.

Interesting to note however that due to the 're-rolls before modifiers' rule, Space Marines get a bit weird.

If, for example, a unit of 10 Marines suffers 4 casualties they roll 1D6+4 and subtract their normal Leadership. Lets say they roll a 4 for a total of 8. Assuming the Sergeant is still alive they have Ld8 and therefore pass the test, suffering no casualties. But if they have been hit with a PGL and it is battle round 5 or later they suffer a -2 penalty on their Ld which is applied after re-rolls and therefore actually take 2 casualties. They may not use ASKNF to re-roll as the test was passed when the re-roll was available.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 09:54

I'm confused. PGL doesn't talk about morale in the rules, it reduce Ld.

And it still affect marines in your example ? Am I missing something here ? ^^

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:07

The PGL effect is a modifier to the units Leadership and and "re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied". So you roll the dice, re-roll if it's failed and then apply any modifiers. This does however seem a bit strange as the modifiers are already in place before the test is taken.

Marines get to re-roll failed Morale tests, so they are still affected but it just works in a weird way.

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masamune
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:12

That's sounds pretty neafty.

If we take back your example, if the marine pass the test with a total result of 8, Ld8, he can't re-roll because it isn't failed.
Then we apply modifiers and cause casualties *-*

Sounds like Dark eldar shenanigans to me, I love it

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:21

It's all down to this really, really wierd rule of applying modifiers after re-rolls. The more I think about it though, the more I wonder if what I wrote is actually correct. GW doesn't specify what a modifier is or even what it has to modify. PGL is pretty clear that you subtract one from your Leadership until the end of the turn. That happens in the shooting phase so the Ld modifier is already in place before you even roll the dice for the morale test. But the re-roll rule is very clear that any modifiers are applied after the re-roll. It probably refers to modifiers to the dice roll rather than the stat but it's not specified either way.

/confused

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 18:51

Count Adhemar wrote:
/confused

Ockham's razor Adhemar. Just go with the re-roll before modifiers

For how cheap it is, I dont see why you would not take it. From my experience so far, morale is killer this edition. Being able to modify it can make or break combat. Killing an extra tough unit is powerful for how cheap it is. Add in the extra shooting attack. Its basically a given at this point

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Wed Jun 28 2017, 18:57

They cost my necron opponent a few extra models as well. He was all like "I'm ld10 so I don't give a fudge" his smile dropped a bit when I told him "Not anymore, kimosabe!"

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 00:48

Count Adhemar wrote:
It's all down to this really, really wierd rule of applying modifiers after re-rolls. The more I think about it though, the more I wonder if what I wrote is actually correct. GW doesn't specify what a modifier is or even what it has to modify. PGL is pretty clear that you subtract one from your Leadership until the end of the turn. That happens in the shooting phase so the Ld modifier is already in place before you even roll the dice for the morale test. But the re-roll rule is very clear that any modifiers are applied after the re-roll. It probably refers to modifiers to the dice roll rather than the stat but it's not specified either way.

/confused

awha?
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 00:56

Took out an extra 4 Terminators, 3 bikes, 1 Devastator and 2 Sisters of Silence with these things. And caused 2 unsaved wounds across 6 turns of a 2000 point match with 9 in my army.

Take them on everything that can carry them (within reason) and then remove them if you're fishing for points towards the end of your listbuild.

I am yet to have a game where they did not make their points back.

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SocarHarbringer
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 03:11

The Look on my friends face when on turn 5 i made 3 custodes Run away was priceless. Negative Ld modifiers are amazing. Especially since it removes models regardless of wounds or saves.
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 03:52

Count Adhemar wrote:
It's all down to this really, really wierd rule of applying modifiers after re-rolls. The more I think about it though, the more I wonder if what I wrote is actually correct. GW doesn't specify what a modifier is or even what it has to modify. PGL is pretty clear that you subtract one from your Leadership until the end of the turn. That happens in the shooting phase so the Ld modifier is already in place before you even roll the dice for the morale test. But the re-roll rule is very clear that any modifiers are applied after the re-roll. It probably refers to modifiers to the dice roll rather than the stat but it's not specified either way.

/confused

wait, so you're saying that because it doesn't specify that its a modifier therefore it literally lowers the LD by 1 so rerolls would still occur?

Also can you shoot your PGL alongside your main weapon? Cause if not, you'd have to decide between pistol or PGL on whatever sergeant or character you took it on.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 08:14

Barrywise wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:
It's all down to this really, really wierd rule of applying modifiers after re-rolls. The more I think about it though, the more I wonder if what I wrote is actually correct. GW doesn't specify what a modifier is or even what it has to modify. PGL is pretty clear that you subtract one from your Leadership until the end of the turn. That happens in the shooting phase so the Ld modifier is already in place before you even roll the dice for the morale test. But the re-roll rule is very clear that any modifiers are applied after the re-roll. It probably refers to modifiers to the dice roll rather than the stat but it's not specified either way.

/confused

wait, so you're saying that because it doesn't specify that its a modifier therefore it literally lowers the LD by 1 so rerolls would still occur?


Also can you shoot your PGL alongside your main weapon? Cause if not, you'd have to decide between pistol or PGL on whatever sergeant or character you took it on.
As I understand it you can shoot it along with everything else the model's got, except hand thrown grenades.


If they haven't specified it, a modifier should be something that modifies... anything. A -1 to hit, modifies your to hit stat so it is technically the same as a -1 to the LD stat. A venom gives everything on the board a -1 to hit "it", but it only becomes relevant when you target it.
I think the wording on the PLG might be stuck on the mindset of 7th, and not meant to create a different mechanic. It might be better to think of it as a debuff token that triggers when it becomes relevant. I.E. when you test against the modified stat for any reason, but after dice rolling and rerolling is done.
But who knows. GW has made rules that makes less sense.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 08:44

Actually, in the SRB (Small Rule Book) it specifies that when choosing to shoot with a Pistol, the only other weapons that model can fire with must also be pistols.

Ignoring the whole issue regarding generally poor wording that results in the Assault rule not functioning (and in the same sweep disallows Pistols from doing their 'within 1" of another model' thing)

Your shooting options go as follows from model to model:

1. Fire all non-pistols.
2. Fire all pistols.
3. Throw your grenades.

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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Phantasm Grenade Launcher   Thu Jun 29 2017, 11:12

This is a pretty heinous way of writing this rule, and I seriously hope it gets fixed because right now that makes no sense at all why you would implement it that way and it makes the game so much harder to play because of its counter intuitive nature. Would have much preferred roll apply modifiers, re roll and apply modifiers.
Even if it sometimes hurts us it just makes sense, and seems less like gaming the system
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