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 4 x Dark Lance Scourges

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
But there is no more Soulburst its only SfD now Cool

SfD allows you to take a Soulburst action.

I miss read, i thought it didnt say souldburst anymore, well i'll start calling it soulbusrt again.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:30

@SERAFF wrote:
I played 4 DL scourges and a Dissie ravager in one list. I took lances on scourges because only boats can carry dissies (and they work great). If you doubt it, just check mathhammer, 10 dissie shots do almost the same damage as 10 lance shots. So 30 points per gun is a fair price.
So my scourges compensate the lack of damage with their lances. I wouldn't say that they shots are wasted after deep strike 4+ is still a good chance. Then soulbirst is a pure happiness.
Blasters seem to have lack of damage, you can't be sure that you will destroy yor target. However blasters look good on warriors as an auxillary weapon.

10 Dissies are 100 points more expensive to take than 10 Dark Lance so I am sorry but you shouldn't be making that comparison. You should only compare 6 Dissies Vs. 9 Dark Lances.

If you are comparing just single shots then I would argue the mathhammer is wrong.

I am also not sold on the Blaster. D3 damage against vehicles with 10+ wounds just doesn't seem enough damage. As we are all aware if DE don't kill the target, the target usually ends up killing you. Perhaps as a support weapon to Dark Lances it can work...Dark Lance takes a chunk of wounds off and Blasters mop up maybe.
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:41

I think Blasters are meant to kill heavily armored/multi wounded infantry such as MEQ, TEQ or Bikes.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 12:44

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
@SERAFF wrote:
I played 4 DL scourges and a Dissie ravager in one list. I took lances on scourges because only boats can carry dissies (and they work great). If you doubt it, just check mathhammer, 10 dissie shots do almost the same damage as 10 lance shots. So 30 points per gun is a fair price.
So my scourges compensate the lack of damage with their lances. I wouldn't say that they shots are wasted after deep strike 4+ is still a good chance. Then soulbirst is a pure happiness.
Blasters seem to have lack of damage, you can't be sure that you will destroy yor target. However blasters look good on warriors as an auxillary weapon.

10 Dissies are 100 points more expensive to take than 10 Dark Lance so I am sorry but you shouldn't be making that comparison.  You should only compare 6 Dissies Vs. 9 Dark Lances.

If you are comparing just single shots then I would argue the mathhammer is wrong.

He was comparing shots, not weapons. 10 dissie shots is only 3.33 dissies (100 points) vs 10 DL (200 points). Not sure if the mathhammer is accurate though.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:08

I think there is literally nothing where it is the same per shot except against t2 max 1,2 wound creatures. And if you are using lances against that you have to many of them.

Against some stuff it is better for per gun, against 2 wound models (except maybe t6/7)
And against t8/9 it is also better assuming a ward save makes the -4ap useless (it usually does)
But that is per gun
BTW 6 dissies or 9 lances is also not fair. You pay around 100 points for the carrier as well, so a fairer aproximation would be 6 lances verus 5 dissies (or 185 versus 155 actually).
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:33

I think the trouble is that given the wound table, the universal weapon wins. That is the reason why the Plasmas are the AT king... they are not just for AT... AND can be overcharged with reroll of 1s near commander. And RF? Like srsly? That weapon is soooo great.

Dissie does not have rerolls but has more shots at longer range. I said it once and will say it again - our strongest army might actually be something along the line of Tantalus or two and Dissie ravagers with a Haemi or two to boost T.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:37

Why not 3 Tantalus with a Haemonculus? Its only like 1250pts lol, that gives 500-800 pts (depending on the Area) for troops or something else.

Back onto topic, its up to you if the pros of more lances at range is better than the cons of Heavy weapons on a non survival unit.

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Ghost
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 18:54

Just to throw my two cents in here;

Blasters are a fantastic anti tank choice, at 130 points a squad it pumps out a ridiculous amount of fire power (hitting on 3's wounding everything bar the toughest of the tough on 3's) followed by each wound doing D3.

Dark lances on the other hand seem pretty meh to me. Hitting on 4's instead of 3's is a big deal, losing half of your shots before you even hit the target.

Last night I ran with 2 blaster squads of scourge (which I completely forgot I had in reserves for turn 1...). Dropped them turn 2 and they single handedly annihilated a caestus assault ram ( after it popped 2 of my raiders unfortunately), dropping it from 14 wounds to 2 to be finished off by my Archon's blaster.

Blasters are great, use more.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 20:13

You scored 12 W against a Hard To Hit 2+ target with T7 with 8 blaster shots?
Average result is 4,4 Wounds... It means that you were extremely lucky, not that blasters are great AT. :-) Almost three times the average result... :-D

Just to compare - this result is equivalent of average shooting of 12,3 lances...
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 20:20

Admittedly I was pretty lucky, but hitting on 4's, wounding on 3's 8 shots is going to dish out a lot of damage
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Wed Jun 28 2017, 20:28

Its 4,4 damage on average, which means that you will spend 260 points of shooting on average for not even slowing the Caestus down.

On the other hand, given its cost I would expect to spend roughly 900-1000 pts of average shooting to bring it down, which is consistent with the Scourges and average Blaster output.

I know the pain. My friend plays Kaos Mehreens and his Fire Raptor scares the bejezus out of me.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Sun Jul 02 2017, 22:37

Hi!  Been lurking on these forums for a couple months now and this is my first post.

Correct me if I'm being batshit crazy, but are Scourges with just the default Shard Carbines being undervalued a bit?  Assault 3 at 18" on a unit with 14" movement that can deepstrike seems pretty narly.  

Don't get me wrong, I think Blasters are an excellent choice and the go to loadout for Scourges.  Haywire Blasters seem fun and worth a pick for the sheer novelty and humor of dumping mortal wounds all over vehicles.

But Dark Lances?  On Scourges?  That's a garbage pick, unless you just like throwing away 34 point models.

Also, this just popped up in today's errata/faq.

"Pages 56 and 57 – Raiders and Venoms, Transport Add the following sentence to both units’ datasheets: ‘This model cannot transport Hellions or Scourges.’"


Last edited by FrankyMcShanky on Sun Jul 02 2017, 23:13; edited 1 time in total
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The Strange Dark One
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Sun Jul 02 2017, 23:04

@FrankyMcShanky wrote:
Hi!  Been lurking on these forums for a couple months now and this is my first post.

Correct me if I'm being batshit crazy, but are Scourges with just the default Shard Carbines being undervalued a bit?  Assault 3 at 18" on a unit with 14" movement that can deepstrike seems pretty narly.  

Don't get me wrong, I think Blasters are an excellent choice and the go to loadout for Scourges.  Haywire Blasters seem fun and worth a pick for the sheer novelty and humor of dumping mortal wounds all over vehicles.

But Dark Lances?  On Scourges.  That's a garbage pick, unless you just like throwing away 34 point models.

Also, this just popped up in today's errata/faq.

"Pages 56 and 57 – Raiders and Venoms, Transport Add the following sentence to both units’ datasheets: ‘This model cannot transport Hellions or Scourges.’"

My thoughts exactly. Since the Venom is not our all-star anymore I was mathhammering what was our best delivery platform for mass splinter fire and Scourges win this fight hands down.

They have garbage survivability compared to the Venom, but that's where Deep Strike comes into play. You can pick exactly where you want to land and with enough dakka you should be able to minimize returning fire to a reasonable level.

I wouldn't take the Splinter Cannon and simply get more bodies (same dakka at 18" and your squad will stay around longer). And at 14" move, getting into 18" range really should not be the problem at all.

Edit: Another math bit I found was that without cover, a 4+/6++/6+++ is basically equivalent to 3+ save when all modifiers apply. Too bad I am to busy to play >_>

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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Sun Jul 02 2017, 23:07

No one ever said Shardcarbine Scourges are bad, this was a topic to discus Dark Lances on them for sniping out hard targets not AI, Shardcarbines are nice AI.

I have 2 Blaster units, a DL unit and a Shardcarbine one, I enjoy the Blasters and Shardcarbines ones the most.

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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Sun Jul 02 2017, 23:13

@FrankyMcShanky wrote:
Hi!  Been lurking on these forums for a couple months now and this is my first post.

Correct me if I'm being batshit crazy, but are Scourges with just the default Shard Carbines being undervalued a bit?  Assault 3 at 18" on a unit with 14" movement that can deepstrike seems pretty narly.  

Don't get me wrong, I think Blasters are an excellent choice and the go to loadout for Scourges.  Haywire Blasters seem fun and worth a pick for the sheer novelty and humor of dumping mortal wounds all over vehicles.

But Dark Lances?  On Scourges.  That's a garbage pick, unless you just like throwing away 34 point models.

Also, this just popped up in today's errata/faq.

"Pages 56 and 57 – Raiders and Venoms, Transport Add the following sentence to both units’ datasheets: ‘This model cannot transport Hellions or Scourges.’"

Carabines do precisely 1 wound per model. So 5 Scourges are 5 wounds...

....not so much, uh? Not sure if I want deepstrikes in that way when I can get more poisoned shots with anything else in the Codex.

Haywire are embarassing...S4 for an antitank weapon. Really? 4 of them are making 2 Mortal wounds, sometimes 1+D3 (which can still 2).
Plus a single wound, maybe, that can be saved. No thanks.

Blasters....D3 damages are too weak. I try them, I shot 8 Blasters on a Tervigone for..nearly nothing.
If you wanna hunt down big stuffs, you NEED the D6 damages. Both Dark Lances and Heat Lances are better then Blasters for me (and that's why Blasters are so cheap). Because if you wanna hunt down big stuffs you will prefer multiple damages over multiple shots.
I still prefer 1 single good DL/HL wound in, then 1,5 Blasters. Even because you still have Command Points that grants you easely rerolls on those damages.


Oh and of course, the range. You don't need to deepstrike nearly to your target. If you have a good shot, you can DS into 36" (maybe into a cover) shoot at 4+ and then just set up for the next turns. Where the blasters push your scourges nearly to the enemy.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Sun Jul 02 2017, 23:28

@Cerve wrote:


Carabines do precisely 1 wound per model. So 5 Scourges are 5 wounds...

I'm not sure what you mean?

@Cerve wrote:

Haywire are embarassing...

Yes.  I was just mentioning them because I think they can be fun and amusing in friendly games, not because I think they're particularly good.


@Cerve wrote:

Blasters....D3 damages are too weak. I try them, I shot 8 Blasters on a Tervigone for..nearly nothing.
If you wanna hunt down big stuffs, you NEED the D6 damages. Both Dark Lances and Heat Lances are better then Blasters for me (and that's why Blasters are so cheap). Because if you wanna hunt down big stuffs you will prefer multiple damages over multiple shots.
I still prefer 1 single good DL/HL wound in, then 1,5 Blasters. Even because you still have Command Points that grants you easely rerolls on those damages.

Right, Darklances are absolutely vital to a successful DE list imo.  But putting them on Scourges?  For 34 points a model?  Garbage!  

There are so many superior platforms for DL's in our lists.  Razorwing Fighters, Ravagers, and Raiders all being excellent choices.  Hell, I'd even pull out a Kabalite Trueborn unit and give them DL's before Scourges, at least they can sit in cover with some cheaper ablative wounds, preferably while camping an objective.

Blasters are really great and absolutely have a place in our army.  They're excellent at dealing with heavy infantry and helping vs armor.

Heat Lances I have a lot of trouble justifying, they're only Str 6 so they're wounding most armor on 5's.  That's not very good.  It's definitely not good for the whopping 25 points you have to spend on them either.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 00:11

To throw my slightly unconventional hat in the ring, the way I see it the more DLs the better.

I see the DL Scourges as a catch 22 of sorts for the opponent; they either deal with the birb-boys at the deep striking wherever and having an open season on anything that isn't infantry OR they deal with the Ravagers and Razorwings that I field. Though I understand that they're an expensive distraction.

Either way, someone's catching some darklight.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 01:55

@PartZebra wrote:
Though I understand that they're an expensive distraction.


That makes them a distraction carnifex...

not being able to jump on a raider hurts, the only redeeming quality they have now is that deepstriking allows you to cherry pick where to place them, ideally out of sight of everything but your chosen target, but that's pretty much it right now.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 02:11

Honestly, I like DL Scourges for a few reasons, namely because they are the cheapest way for us to get Dark Lances.

Allow me to explain with some math on all of our units that can take Dark Lances. All of these calculations are made assuming the unit is taking the maximum number of DLs in the most efficient squad size.

10 Kabalite Warriors: 1 DL, 90 points per Lance.
5 Trueborn: 2 DLs, 47.5 points per Lance.
Ravager: 3 DLs, 51.7 points per Lance.
Raider: 1 DL, 115 points per Lance.
Razorwing: 2 DLs, 77.5 points per Lance.
Scourges: 4 DLs, 37.5 points per Lance.

Now of course each of these units have their own niches and advantages, but if you're looking for just cheap (ish) volumes of Darklight, Scourges are the clear option.

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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 05:15

What about 10x Scourge with 4 Lances? Ablative wounds, and split fire too. How do they compare to the 5-strong Lance Scourge?


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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 05:40

I took the lance scourges in two situations. Situation A is because I already had 4 ravagers on the table and situation B is the Tantalus flash light, where I stick 3 units. This was hella fun because it cuts back extremely high on deployment units to get the first turn. Besides, 4 moving scourges still averages the same as a moving ravager with the potential for an extra hit which is cool and the tantalus is so big you can get LOS from any point of it easy
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 05:46

What if we stick 4x dark lance Scourges in a bunker? It's only 100 points and it's better protection than a Raider ever was.

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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 06:29

@FrankyMcShanky wrote:
@Cerve wrote:


Carabines do precisely 1 wound per model. So 5 Scourges are 5 wounds...

I'm not sure what you mean?

@Cerve wrote:

Haywire are embarassing...

Yes.  I was just mentioning them because I think they can be fun and amusing in friendly games, not because I think they're particularly good.


@Cerve wrote:

Blasters....D3 damages are too weak. I try them, I shot 8 Blasters on a Tervigone for..nearly nothing.
If you wanna hunt down big stuffs, you NEED the D6 damages. Both Dark Lances and Heat Lances are better then Blasters for me (and that's why Blasters are so cheap). Because if you wanna hunt down big stuffs you will prefer multiple damages over multiple shots.
I still prefer 1 single good DL/HL wound in, then 1,5 Blasters. Even because you still have Command Points that grants you easely rerolls on those damages.

Right, Darklances are absolutely vital to a successful DE list imo.  But putting them on Scourges?  For 34 points a model?  Garbage!  

There are so many superior platforms for DL's in our lists.  Razorwing Fighters, Ravagers, and Raiders all being excellent choices.  Hell, I'd even pull out a Kabalite Trueborn unit and give them DL's before Scourges, at least they can sit in cover with some cheaper ablative wounds, preferably while camping an objective.

Blasters are really great and absolutely have a place in our army.  They're excellent at dealing with heavy infantry and helping vs armor.

Heat Lances I have a lot of trouble justifying, they're only Str 6 so they're wounding most armor on 5's.  That's not very good.  It's definitely not good for the whopping 25 points you have to spend on them either.


Mmm....I actually disagree this time. Raider, Ravager and Razorwings are perfect for Disintegrator cannons (which are helpfull against elite multiwound infantries, and still really good against veichles if you see their math). And between DL and all the other guns, I prefer DL on Scourges.
If I have to.choose I will put Dissies on Raiders, Ravagers and Razorwings, and DL on Scourges.


About Shardcarabines: 3 shots, 2 in, 1 wound. So 1 wound per Scourge. I will not pay a FastAttack and a DS unit just for that, that was my thought.
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 06:31

@MHaruspex wrote:
What about 10x Scourge with 4 Lances? Ablative wounds, and split fire too. How do they compare to the 5-strong Lance Scourge?

Still prefer 2x5 Scourges with 4DL. And if the enemy will shoot down them, will.be fine for me. Classic "msu-ish style"
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PostSubject: Re: 4 x Dark Lance Scourges   Mon Jul 03 2017, 07:05

Shardcarbines were amazing when i could put them in Raider/Venoms. Now I cant Sad

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