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 Double Splinter canon venom worth it?

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Tue Jun 27 2017, 07:38

@CptMetal wrote:
I mean if I charge with the venom the unit inside will be useless next turn. Probably

I thought you would disembark from the vehicle that charged, then fall back with the vehicle, and shoot and charge with the unit that disembarked...all of that is allowed in the rules am I right?

I wouldnt use this tactic often but like it has been mentioned earlier it might be better than simply being shot either way. The main issue with this tactic is that you need to survive yours and your opponents fight phase before you can disembark, fall back, shoot then charge.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Tue Jun 27 2017, 08:10

Surviving the fight phase is all about engaging the right target. The earlier mentioned leman Russ punisher has a zero percent chance of killing a half health venom in CC for example.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Tue Jun 27 2017, 08:39

I agree with Red king here.

It is all about picking the right target. And yes Dark elf Dave you idea is correct.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Tue Jun 27 2017, 08:46

Exactly. Disembark and reengage while the venom flies off to kill something with shooting.

You don't want to charge a dreadnaught, but a tank, some dark reapers, warp spiders, a tac squad... any of those should be fine depending on wounds remaining.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 01:32

Who leaves a single Leman Russ on its own, ready to be charged, with nothing else in range that can counter-charge???

Also, Venoms move 16". Nearly all of the deployments at 24" apart. You are gambling on an 8" charge turn 1? If you fail you are rapid fire range of pretty much every gun on the table.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 01:58

@Hellstrom wrote:
Who leaves a single Leman Russ on its own, ready to be charged, with nothing else in range that can counter-charge???

Also, Venoms move 16".  Nearly all of the deployments at 24" apart.  You are gambling on an 8" charge turn 1?  If you fail you are rapid fire range of pretty much every gun on the table.

I can't remember anyone suggesting you have to do this on turn one...just that it is a possible tactic that doesn't render the transported unit useless because you can disembark, shoot and charge as you please.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 02:08

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:
Sometimes you don't want to get within 12" and easily charged/melta shot next turn.
.
Thats why you charge those meltas with the venom after you shoot.  Better they needing 6's to hit you than 3's!
They will be in range to shoot you next turn, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's. What difference does it make? if they are within 12" they can roll two dice and pick the highest? they can do that with a command point reroll if they roll poorly on the first damage roll.

People are still stuck in "7th" mode.. heck, we all are. But ALL of my venoms are either charging or attempting to charge turn 1 against non fly units. I charged a pask punisher with two meltas and a lascannon. My opponent looked at me like I was nuts, but after I explained he was going to shoot me next round anyway, might as well make him hit on 6's rather than 2's, he understood.

I feel if you are putting 15 point wargear peices on a vehicle for 2-4 shots extra, but you have to stay away from the enemy, you are using the venoms wrong.

Yes if he wants to burn a CP he can do that... with 1 meltagun, rather than all of them if you are within 12".

There are many situations, missions, match up and terrain in which it would be wiser to shoot for a turn or 2 instead of kamikazeing your venoms or raiders in turn 1.

Splinter cannons and all our other 18" weaponry give us that capability.
Seems silly not to take advantage of it.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 04:19

I plan on taking more Raiders then Venoms...actually I only plan on taking one Venom at the moment. So one more cannon or not wont make a lot of difference to me.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 05:07

But venoms look so much better then raiders.
:'(
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 05:18

@Painjunky wrote:

Yes if he wants to burn a CP he can do that... with 1 meltagun, rather than all of them if you are within 12".
You do know venoms only have like 6 hull points, right?
How many meltas do you think he is going to need?


My suggestion is based solely on competitive play as to point cost versus value gained. Unless you have a spare 15 points just lying around, in almost every situation, the upgrade is not worth the cost to attain it.
That, and venoms are not designed in any way to "stay back for a round or two and shoot".

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 05:22

Well they certainly don't look bad vehicles, I am not hinting at that, but I feel for now while I get used to 8th I plan on having as few deployments as possible which is a key benefit or Raiders and max squads.

3 Raiders, one Venom, 35 infantry (Kabs, Kabs, Trueborn, Wracks, 2x HQ), 6 Reavers, 5 Scourge, 1 Razorwing Jetfighter.

That's 13 units but only 6 to deploy...at 1500 points I should be able to get a fair few 1st turns.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 09:18

Just curious; what are you doing with the Reavers?

I'm struggling to justify their cost vs functionality. Especially when compared to Scourges. Or Hellions. Or a Razorwing.

They just don't look like they do much.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:35

Sadly, all my reavers are now holding the spot on my shelves my wyches and mandrakes had. They simply, in my opinion, are not worth their points in any way whatsoever.

5 hellions with a helliarch and stunclaw put out 10 poison shots, and with the +1 A drug, 15 attacks at str 4, doing 2 damage each. (possibly some mortal wounds)
3 reavers with no upgrades whatsoever put out 3-6 poison shots, and have 7 str 3 attacks doing 1 damage each.

These 2 units are within 2 points of each other.

Oh... and you can hide hellions in a raider. Reavers are just out there screaming 'shoot me!"

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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 11:05

Luckily reavers aren't as bad as wyches was in the last edition, and they have been doing ok in the games that i've used them in. I think they won't be a staple unit anymore, but I will definately use them for flavour once in a while.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:11

@Skulnbonz. Have you been using groups of 5 helions effectively? I've been meaning to try 5 wyches and 5 helions in a raider but haven't gotten a game in recently.

And imo, as good as venom cannons used to be, they just aren't the same anymore. At the cost of another guy and a half in the venom, Im taking the guy.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 14:39

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@Painjunky wrote:

Yes if he wants to burn a CP he can do that... with 1 meltagun, rather than all of them if you are within 12".
You do know venoms only have like 6 hull points, right?
How many meltas do you think he is going to need?

You do know a venom has -1 to hit and a 5++, right?

@Skulnbonz wrote:
My suggestion is based solely on competitive play as to point cost versus value gained.  Unless you have a spare 15 points just lying around, in almost every situation, the upgrade is not worth the cost to attain it.
That, and venoms are not designed in any way to "stay back for a round or two and shoot".

AT 18" they are. Which is what i said.
The range gels with all the other 18" range gunz (blaster, shardcannon,PGL) nicely. It much safer than 12" too

There are a myriad of tactical reasons ie the mission, the list, the terrain why you would not want to kamikaze in turn 1. Against some opponents it would be suicide. The splinter cannon gives you that option.

You don't think that's worth 15 pts, i do. That's Cool
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 17:07

Also, sitting at 18" against Marines or guard means they need to move directly towards you, and then attempt to charge 12" to get you in combat.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 17:13

My venoms are glued with the double splinter cannon and it just doesn't feel right not taking them.

Still, as fast as they are it's not difficult to get into 18 inch range at all and my venoms are more often than not carrying a kabalite squad that includes a blaster...

It is a really tough call when min maxing. As someone said earlier I can take a unit of mandrakes for just dropping the second splinter cannon. The more boys less toys mantra comes to mind. Still, I'll probably keep the second cannon just because they do put out more shots across the board even if it might be a touch over costed.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Wed Jun 28 2017, 18:16

venoms sadly dont get their neg 1 when taking overwatch as written
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Fri Jun 30 2017, 10:14

I have 7 Venoms, i will be cutting off 2 of them so i can at least have 2 with 1 cannon.

I dont need 7 with them anyways, me and a good friend (a insanely smart warahmmer guy) talked about this last night.

The damage out put on venoms just doesnt seem worth it anymore, especially if you are going to move it up anyways do to melee units being inside.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Fri Jun 30 2017, 10:31

I tend to agree that if you are taking wyches or incubi inside them then the 2nd cannon probably isnt needed but a good point sink if you have an extra 15-60 points to fill.

However with warriors with a blaster or trueborn with blasters it becomes a much better option synergizing the weapon ranges to get as much fire from your squads as you can without getting close enough that you make it easy to be charged
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Sat Jul 01 2017, 07:16

@Skulnbonz wrote:
5 hellions with a helliarch and stunclaw put out 10 poison shots, and with the +1 A drug, 15 attacks at str 4, doing 2 damage each. (possibly some mortal wounds)
3 reavers with no upgrades whatsoever put out 3-6 poison shots, and have 7 str 3 attacks doing 1 damage each.

Getting off topic here, but that's a very biased comparison. You're looking at Hellions with their weapons and combat drugs versus Reavers without their weapons or drugs--of course the Hellions are going to look way better. If you do an apples to apples comparison using the +1 Attack drug and Bladevanes, then the Reavers have 10 attacks at S4 AP-1--incidentally against space marines with those stats they average the exact same amount of wounds. On top of that Reavers are also tougher, better armored, have more wounds, and an extra 2" of movement. It takes over twice as many shots from bolters to kill that 3 man squad of Reavers. Reavers are perfectly fine, they and Hellions just fill slightly different niches.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Sat Jul 01 2017, 07:24

3 Reavers with Agoniser are are basically same cost as 5 Hellions w/ Stun Claw.

To me, Hellions has a better filling Roll, Reavers are IMO all over the place, they want to be fast, but dont really focus on shooting enough or melee enough (this is one of the problems with DE we are to much "Jack of all Trades").

I honestly dont like Jack of all Trade units, thats why i dont use Razorwings instead i use Ravagers, same for Reavers vs Hellions, I'd take Hellions, yes hellions has poison, but i dont take them for the 10 poison shots, that is just extra damage while in venoms/raiders, i take them to charge units in cover, multi wound units hiding or bikes (2 wound models) that i can shoot at.

I like having 1 unit that can get behind cover, i would rather use Reavers for that but they dont do enough for me.

If i put the Cost of the Raider/Venom into the Reavers the unit would be 9 man big with upgrades, the problem for me is that i cant hide 9man units that pressure threat to out of LoS units and just get shot up quickly.

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Sat Jul 01 2017, 23:41

@amishprn86 wrote:
If i put the Cost of the Raider/Venom into the Reavers the unit would be 9 man big with upgrades, the problem for me is that i cant hide 9man units that pressure threat to out of LoS units and just get shot up quickly.

Don't put reavers in units of 9. Ever.
Far too unwieldy and hard to hide as you said. 3 reavers are easier to hide than 5 hellions and much tougher too.
Multiple units of 3 works best for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Sun Jul 02 2017, 00:39

I understand that, but for the use of Drugs (i dont play with enough to really benefit from drugs spam)i like to have my units kitted for a job, and if the drug isnt right then its like a thorn in my side lol.

And my hellions are doing what i want them to do effectively so i see no reason to change atm.

Tho i am thinking of trying out Corsair Cloud Dancers now b.c they get Dis Cannon and Dark Lances, i wanted to try them out 1 unit of each and see what i like better.

Thinking of Venoms, i kinda wish i could just take 2 Splinter Rifles now and make it extremely cheap.

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