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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 20:18

Everything is in the title.
What are your experiences with that. Worth it?
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spellcheck2001
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 20:22

Only had one game so far but they have been a bit hit and miss.

The -1 to hit and 5+ invuln is great and makes them very survivable .
However the splinter cannons are really a lot worse than they were. The rapid fire means you have to get a lot closer to take advantage of the 12 shots, and the lack of ap really hurts (this is a thing over the whole army now tho, so I guess I just have to get used to it)

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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 20:33

Not double..

I think the extra Splinter Cannon is a luxury buy at best considering they now get Twin Splinter Rifles for free.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 21:14

What if you're transporting a Kabalite Warrior squad with Blaster and Phantasm Grenade Launcher?
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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 21:18

Here is the breakdown of shots per venom

W/ double cannon 1-18" 12 shots, 19-36" 6 shots

W/ splinter rifles 1-12" 10 shots, 13-18" 8 shots, 19-24" 5 shots, 25-36" 3 shots

for 15pts, I dont think 2 shots at 12" or less, or 4 shots at 18" (their optimal range) is worth it

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 21:26

@Shadows Revenge wrote:
Here is the breakdown of shots per venom

W/ double cannon 1-18" 12 shots, 19-36" 6 shots

W/ splinter rifles 1-12" 10 shots, 13-18" 8 shots, 19-24" 5 shots, 25-36" 3 shots

for 15pts, I dont think 2 shots at 12" or less, or 4 shots at 18" (their optimal range) is worth it

yeah. its such a small upgrade, and across all venoms the price really piles up. I saved 75-100 pts for not taking the second cannons. that basically allowed me to take mandrakes.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 21:40

15 points for two extra shots at 12" and closer.

I would not pay that, as the venoms are now BETTER up close and personal than they are sitting back and shooting.

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Shadows Revenge
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 21:46

@Skulnbonz wrote:
15 points for two extra shots at 12" and closer.

I would not pay that, as the venoms are now BETTER up close and personal than they are sitting back and shooting.

my one caveat to this is maybe 15pts is better for 4 shots at the 13-18" range? Less than 18" range seems to be their optimal range now, and I can see 4 shots adding up over time. But it also depends if you can keep them at that optimal range versus the point value

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helvexis
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeMon Jun 26 2017, 23:43

in my opinion yes as it gives us some shooting outside of 24 that isnt mounted on a ravager which isnt something we have a lot of and as they can consistantly move around most armies keeping them at the range you want shots into footslogging anything that cant return fire is a good thing
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 02:15

Absolutely yes. Always.

The range is a significant boost and it it fires more shots at every range than the rifle variant.

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Dawnstone
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 06:07

I think it depends on the unit you're running with them. With 18" units such as Blaster Trueborn & Cannon Scourges I think its worth it. With Warriors and cc units, I'd stick with the twin splinter rifiles as you're likely to get into that 12" range anyway.
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Rusty293
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 06:18

i took 3 Venoms with dual cannons in my last game and they fared very well against Orks. That said it is 6 extra shots for 45pts essentially. The range wasn't really an issue due to the 16 inch move, I always was in rapid fire range of something . Think I'll try the twin splinter rifle variant though next time and see if the loss of those 6 shots is that bad though.
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LordSplata
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 07:43

The big difference is unless you annihilate the thing you are targetting then you will always leave yourself in charge range with the dual splinter rifle rapid fire range, whereas this is not the case with the cannons.
To me that is the trade off. It isn't really about shots in the end as when points are taken into account the change in shots is almost a non event.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 07:50

Sometimes you don't want to get within 12" and easily charged/melta shot next turn.

4 more shots from a safer 18" which gels with other 18" fire (blasters, shard carbines, PGL,) from the passengers is worth it.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 08:13

I'll be using it tomorrow against death guard. I'll Try to write a short battle report.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 09:21

I always take double cannons but that's mainly cos I glued mine on with plastic glue Sad

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Archon Vitcus
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 09:56

I've had no experience of 8th yet, but I would rather keep the venom out of rapid fire range so as not to risk being charged. I would be mostly having warriors or trueborn in the venoms so distance is a better idea than risk shooty units being stuck in combat.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 10:51

It probably depends a lot on who you are fighting. I fought against orks and tyranids mostly.
In my experience 18 inch is also in charge range. Same as 12.
Versus orcs -5 move -2d6 reroll (8ish) 1inch to reach means they need to roll a 4+ for their run move, roughly 50% chance that they do. Once there is a vehicle (disembark ads 3 inch) or biker (14"move) nearby they easily make it.
Versus nids: move 8 +2d6 means they often do not make it. But if genestealers (+run) or bigger guys (move 9) flyers and you are a sitting duck. So I usually find for those 2 or sometimes 4 shots the extra 15 points are better spend on 2 kabalites (also 2 - 4 shots) or nearly an extra a hellion (2 shots and fighting)


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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 12:36

@|Meavar wrote:
It probably depends a lot on who you are fighting. I fought against orks and tyranids mostly.
In my experience 18 inch is also in charge range. Same as 12.
Versus orcs -5 move -2d6 reroll (8ish) 1inch to reach means they need to roll a 4+ for their run move, roughly 50% chance that they do. Once there is a vehicle (disembark ads 3 inch) or biker (14"move) nearby they easily make it.
Versus nids: move 8 +2d6 means they often do not make it. But if genestealers (+run) or bigger guys (move 9) flyers  and you are a sitting duck. So I usually find for those 2 or sometimes 4 shots the extra 15 points are better spend on 2 kabalites (also 2 - 4 shots) or nearly an extra a hellion (2 shots and fighting)



This is true.
At 18" there is a chance they will get charged.
At 12" they will definitely get charged. Wink
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 12:52

@Painjunky wrote:
Sometimes you don't want to get within 12" and easily charged/melta shot next turn.
.
Thats why you charge those meltas with the venom after you shoot. Better they needing 6's to hit you than 3's!
They will be in range to shoot you next turn, hitting on 3's, wounding on 3's. What difference does it make? if they are within 12" they can roll two dice and pick the highest? they can do that with a command point reroll if they roll poorly on the first damage roll.

People are still stuck in "7th" mode.. heck, we all are. But ALL of my venoms are either charging or attempting to charge turn 1 against non fly units. I charged a pask punisher with two meltas and a lascannon. My opponent looked at me like I was nuts, but after I explained he was going to shoot me next round anyway, might as well make him hit on 6's rather than 2's, he understood.

I feel if you are putting 15 point wargear peices on a vehicle for 2-4 shots extra, but you have to stay away from the enemy, you are using the venoms wrong.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 13:32

I mostly agree Skulnbonz.

I would just do it for that one or 2 venoms that stay behind in my line and shoot at 36 so all those 24" weapons cannot reach them. But then again those 3 extra shots are not that important then usually.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 13:55

Good argument. But what are you going to do after you charged?
You're so close that it will be Easy to kill it I guess.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 14:08

Against melee armies:
After I charged I either kill them all (or nearly all) or I die.
Then I repeat it against the next unit that strayed to far from the support of other units.

Against shooty armies
I repeat it as often as possible before they kill me and hope they die before I do.
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 14:48

@CptMetal wrote:
Good argument. But what are you going to do after you charged?
You're so close that it will be Easy to kill it I guess.

On their turn, if they want to expend effort killing a venom, at the expense of ignoring the ravagers, mandrakes and razorwings, more power to them, and the venom succeeded in its job!

And at toughness 5 with a 4+ in HTH, it is not as easy to kill as you may think. raiders even more so.

Our vehicles are truly some of the best in the game. About time we can say that, and not be sarcastic!

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Double Splinter canon venom worth it?    Double Splinter canon venom worth it?  I_icon_minitimeTue Jun 27 2017, 15:33

I mean if I charge with the venom the unit inside will be useless next turn. Probably
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