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 Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:05

8th is so new a different it is really hard to tell without actually trying something on the field.

I have enjoyed the coven units quite a lot so far. I am going to try a list with 1650 list with 3 Talos. Prepping for a 6 game 1650 tournament.

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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:21

2 x 6 attacks? So two weapons doubles your attacks?

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Quauchtemoc
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:34

@RedRegicide wrote:
2 x 6 attacks? So two weapons doubles your attacks?

I think he was talking of the 2 Talos together
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:36

I think he mentioned he had 2 of them, so 6 attacks each.

Beaten to it
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 16:17

I'll revise an earlier opinion, Grots are working well for me. No HQ strictly necessary, re-roll to charge, T6 usually, hit on 2+ (when you most likely want to be charging), choice between 5 attacks at -1 ap (OK for vehicles, great for low T models) or 4 with a chance for mortal wounds for those with strong invuln saves (think storm shields).

They have a lot of bonuses they didn't have before. Sure, there are more things that can multi-wound them, but they do take dedication to put down.

I usually save my reroll dice in the opponents shooting phase purely to make sure their raider doesn't blow up, as it hurts to lose a grot to that.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 16:30

It's really hard to determine where they are right now because of how much the core rules of the game has changed. Once the meta settles down and we know what we'll be dealing with, then we can truly determine if they've gotten worse.

I think we can all roughly agree though, that they haven't gotten better...

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 16:31

Out of interest, what do you guys think of Wracks and the Chronos at the moment?
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Woozl
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 16:48

they have performed well for me in multi-assault situations alongside grots and a haemi.

The ability to pin down a high damage model (like a space wolf dread hidden amongst other models that does d6 damage per wound) is not to be understated. 5+ invuln but single wound means that your grots can be free to clear out chaff.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 17:40

Where to start, I've played 6 games of 8th using coven only lists, the last 2 of which were Talos, Cronos and Haemy only lists.

I've won all of the last 3 games, and I was both surprised and crazy happy that they actually work. I'm actually hoping to expand the list up to a 9 Talos, 3 Cronos and 3 Haemy list.

The Haemy are something to be feared in CC if you give them electrocorrosive whips and keep a Cronos close by, though the Cronos and Talos have really lost their edge in CC.

Where the Talos has shone for me is being equipped with liquifier guns and heat lances, a very versatile and resilient force to be reckoned with in the kinds of numbers I have planned.

The Cronos on the other hand aren't really filling me with confidence, the buffs are nice but I've really struggled to get them to actually do much damage in shooting or CC. And in the 3 games have only recovered 3 wounds in total using them.

Feel free to fire some questions if you think I've missed anything Smile
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Lost Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 18:21

I have just 2 x Talos with my list for tomorrow´s game against the CSM...didn´t take any Grots, trying my new Incubi + Razorwing Jetfighter in place...I´ll have to see how they fare this time. I used to have 2 x 3 Talos in my 7th edition games, my favorite unit (at least in the 7th Smile )...

Check back after my Tuesday´s game...

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 22:21

@The Shredder wrote:
Out of interest, what do you guys think of Wracks and the Chronos at the moment?

I don't know about the chronos as i haven't played it yet. It doesn't look great. Neutral

Wracks however are bad-asses. Tough and good in cc with electro whips on acothyst and haem. An excellent body guard unit.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 22:39

The Cronos is iffy to me. I would almost always just prefer another Talos.

Haemonculus are great. My fav DE hq.

I haven't tried wrecks yet, but T5 near a haemonculus sounds really good to me. That the the acolytes weapon options are pretty good as well

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RoadRageRob666
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Mon Jun 26 2017, 23:09

So Ive been playing covens heavy lists (sometime mono-coven) and have found that grots are still good, the Cronos is great as both a force multiplyer and a damage dealer, Wracks are significantly improved, Haemies are great, but the Talos is just OK.

Grots: my set up is: 1-2 units with 3-4 grots w/1 Electrowhip, 1-2 Liquifiers, accompanied by a Haemy, alongside a 5 grot unit w/ an Electrowhip and 3 Liquifiers. Liquifiers always go on the Electrowhip guy first, with extra going wherever. Everything goes in a Raider.

With a unit of 3 grots w/ 1x Liquifier and Electro, 1x Liquifier and Flesh Gauntlet, 1x stock + an Electro Haemy, in a Raider:
Turn 1: Flat out them where they need to go, getting as close as possible to their intended target, the raiders newly found durability helps a lot with keeping the grots safe for the enemies first turn/second turn (depending on who goes first).

Turn 2: disembark, move the grots 7" towards the enemy, fire Liquifiers (2x liquifiers will, on average, result in 1.55 dead MEQs), charge with raider, charge with grots. The electrowhip grot will deal 1.19 unsaved wounds to single wound MEQs, or 2.38 to multiwound, 3+ non-vehicle models. Flesh Gaunt will deal 0.88 wounds to any non-vehicle, 3+ target, and the Cleaver will deal 1.11 to MEQs.

In total, thats an average of 4.65 wounds on a MEQ unit from the grots alone (go add in the Haemy and/or Raider and youve cleared a full Dev/Tac squad. This all gets amped up come Turn 3, or if you have a Cronos nearby.

All in all, Im very happy with how grots work now, and I think that a lot of people on this forum are underestimating how great Lquifiers (or the Cronos weapons) can be, especially against Nids (which are very relevant in my local Meta) and conscript/horror/RWF (sorry guys) spam.

Ive also had great experiences with the Cronos, but I think Ive ranted enough, for the time being lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 02:47

From my expereince so far (not going into to much details its late for me)

Grots and Wracks work fine
Talos is a hit or miss depending on who your fighting
Cronos isnt really worth it at all
Haemonculus are good
Urien isnt worth it imo.

Taking an Electro whip without losing its main weapon is really good IMO sense Grots now have a weapon to work on infantry and vehicles

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 05:25

Has anyone tried out the Ichor Injector yet? I haven't had the points to put it on my Talos in recent games but to be honest..on paper it looks like absolute and utter garbage.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 05:28

I think someone mentioned it earlier, but mortal wounds against invuln saves (SS and TH termies would be good) although why you put those two in combat against each other is...not recommended.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 05:43

Unreliable AF

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 12:02

@amishprn86 wrote:
From my expereince so far (not going into to much details its late for me)

Grots and Wracks work fine
Talos is a hit or miss depending on who your fighting
Cronos isnt really worth it at all
Haemonculus are good
Urien isnt worth it imo.

Taking an Electro whip without losing its main weapon is really good IMO sense Grots now have a weapon to work on infantry and vehicles

Agree with this.

You say "Talos is a hit or miss depending on who your fighting". Could you expand on this point please? Im genuinely interested.

I'm having success with taloi (with wracks and haem) vs crons and muhreens.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 12:55

The talos is a bit slower, he has T6 and 7w put he still dies a bit easily than we need him too, against armies that dont move to fast so you can hide him and get him to shot a couple rounds moving up from terrain to terrain making sure he can get a turn 3-4 charge on a key unit i've found is best way to use him.

Jump/Fly/Skimmer armies he isnt to good against, so Eldar kin's, Bike/Speeder Armies, FMC ones etc...

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 12:57

I don't suppose anyone has tried to replicate the Dark Artisan or Coven Claw formations in 8th? Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 12:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
The talos is a bit slower,

Slower ? Than what ?
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 13:19

Raiders, Ravagers, Fliers, Venoms, Hellions, Beasts, Scourges, Mandrakes (mandrakes and Scourges and infiltrate/DS)

They are some of our slowest units.

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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 14:23

@amishprn86 wrote:
Raiders, Ravagers, Fliers, Venoms, Hellions, Beasts, Scourges, Mandrakes (mandrakes and Scourges and infiltrate/DS)

They are some of our slowest units.

Ah yeah, but thats not a new thing and it was far worst before
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 15:35

My only game with Grots saw them sucking up time of firepower, but since everything is more resilient, that's less impressive.

In CC they did very little, but since everything is more resilient, that's not a surprise.
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PostSubject: Re: Did the Grots & Talos just get worse in 8th?   Tue Jun 27 2017, 15:53

The grots are still good, and it gives us something to do with an HQ as the +1T is nice for str 6 shooting defense. I've been using them in 8th and have not been disappointed (unlike wyches who suck slightly less now but still compete to win the title of worst unit in 40k).

With multi-damage weapons the grots durability is down a little and even with T6 is bolters still hurt them on a 5+ but every shot fired at a grot is a shot not fired at our ships.

I haven't tried incubi yet and for me, the real question is whether or not 1 grot is better than 2 incubi or 2 mandrakes since they all compete for the same slot. I've been happy with mandrakes since 5th edition and they just keep getting better.

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