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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 04 2017, 01:22

The thing is, GW designed the game to be like this by removing all the tools players had to deal with mass weak unit spam. Blast and flamer templates punished people for bringing grouped up weak units. Instant death stopped weak, multi-wound bases cold. Things like Rampage, Stomp, Tank Shock, Thunderblitz, and all-or-nothing morale gave people a fighting chance even if they weren't entirely equipped to deal with it. Weak units couldn't hurt tough units either, just tie them up, which helped too. All of that is removed, and since weak units can now hurt everything, there is no reason not to bring a ton of chaff units in your competitive lists. In numbers they go from objective holders and units to tie up combat to downright lethal and impenetrable blobs of wounds.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 04 2017, 03:33

All my opponents enjoyed their games as no one had played against such a list before. My opponents all had good lists , as it was a competitive event.

I played:
Da ravenwing list with knight and flyers
8tzeentch princes changeling belakor lots of brimstones
Horde orks
Drone hordes with lots of commanders(very tough for me)
3 double Gatling Knights and brimstones

Drones and horde orks were the hardest for me. Both had the damage output to hurt me.

I never lost more than 80-100 flocks so probably could have trimmed some down:

My list was:
Yncarne
Yvraine
Farseer
Maugan Ra
3 beastmasters
5 kabalites
149 flocks
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 04 2017, 03:57

If you were not playing SM in 5th (I started 1/2 through 5th and GK came out right when i had a full army and i knew the game very well). After that is was GK literally at every other table, with some other SM'a and a few Necrons.

I fought against 3 GK's, 1 IG and 1 Necron. It wasnt not very fun b.c Venoms's poison and Wyches doesnt do a lot to 35+ 2+ armor guys, specially when 2-3 Dreadnoughts are there too. (You pulled bodies from the back like we can now) and you never killed the important 2-3 in 5man units.
The IG game was bad for me too.

I did better as Nids lol (my 1st army and i helped a few friends for tournaments with my nids, i was doing leaps and bounds better)

My experience with 6/7 were much better compare to 5th, 5th left a worst taste in my mouth than 7th (6th was actually much worst for me b.c FMC and Necron Flying Spam along with DE being bad and Jink was only a 5+ save).


At least against Flocks I can focus down the units of 12 and kill a full unit a turn and have a chance to win by objectives (Sense ITC does roll 3 dice and pick 2).


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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 04 2017, 12:49

Can you explain your strategy against the Orks and tau spam please.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Wed Jul 05 2017, 04:23

Against the orks it was 1 objective each, he had lots of boys, ghaz etc I knew if I engaged him 1 to 1 he could clear out lots of birds so I bubble wrapped with 2 squads and counter assaulted with 3. Did this twice with shooting and smites to clear them all out . Unfortunately game ended on 5 with only his big guns on the objective and my yncarne about to squish them.

The drones put out lots and lots of shots with overwatch, but can't take a punch back so every time flocks died, my models were either smiting or maugan ra firing back. The yncarne did so much damage this turn and I kept charging birds into overwatch to regen his wounds up.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 01:00

I keep hearing terrible things from the competitive groups around my area. People saying that not even competitive play is fun anymore because it's nothing but Razorwing Flocks and Stormraven Gunships or w/e. Apparently all the ATC lists are the same thing over and over. Spam lists are running wild with no recourse because there is nothing in the game to counter large numbers of tightly packed masses of weak units that can hurt everything in the game. People who hate the spam are saying they're feeling forced to play it because if they want a serious chance of winning any singles tournament they almost have to run Razorwing Flocks. Zombicide Murder of Crowz have sold out multiple times on Amazon. I know that I'm personally responsible for at least half a dozen competitive bird lists being purchased. It's to the point that sometimes I feel bad about coming up with it, or at least propagating it to the point that all the 40k groups know me by my bird lists.

And then some schmuck reminds me Biel-Tan got blown up and that Lelith is Ynnari now.

And then I buy another box of birds.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 03:35

@TeenageAngst wrote:
I keep hearing terrible things from the competitive groups around my area. People saying that not even competitive play is fun anymore because it's nothing but Razorwing Flocks and Stormraven Gunships or w/e.

The solution to this seems remarkably simple. If you're playing a game and it's not fun then don't play.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 05:22

What if you WANT to complain? Because GW dared to change the fluff and you are unable and/or unwilling to advance your own fluff too? Be it just so minor?

Hm? What about that? You can´t take the right away from a man to play a game to complain and rant! It´s a basic right to ruin the mood for everyone!

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 08:10

He did specify competitive settings.

Building to win is part of competitive play. If the people who don't win didn't build competitive enough, and 'didn't have fun' because they got birdmurdered, then too bad for them.

I'm going to have go buy some birds myself.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 08:12

@Jimsolo wrote:
He did specify competitive settings.

Building to win is part of competitive play. If the people who don't win didn't build competitive enough, and 'didn't have fun' because they got birdmurdered, then too bad for them.

I'm going to have go buy some birds myself.

The post makes it sound like it's not just the people playing against the spam that aren't having fun. It's the guys playing the spam lists too!

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 08:49

Fair enough. Sorry @TeenageAngst
There need some point adjustments and something discouraging people from spam like the Magic mechanic of 4 times the same card maximum

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 09:53

I have been running 20 Razorwing flocks and had pretty good success with them so far. 2x10 isn't spamming which I like. And 20 flocks is not boring either!

The flocks haven't seemed crazy amazing so far, but still really good for being a meat shield and clogging up parts of the board.
Against certain armies they dissappear pretty quickly. Against others they stay around and are annoying for most of the game.

I just went to a 6 game tournament and loved using them with other DE units. Tons of fun

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 09:55

Yeah, but there's a big difference between taking a couple of large-ish units of something with the rest of your army and taking as many units/models of a particular type as you can feasibly cram into a list.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 10:03

@CptMetal wrote:
Fair enough. Sorry @TeenageAngst
There need some point adjustments and something discouraging people from spam like the Magic mechanic of 4 times the same card maximum
If i remember clearly, in Ragnarok (Ragnarok was to Confrontation what Apocalypse is to 40k) there was a rule stating that you could not have more than 25% of your points spent on one codex entry. Thus preventing spam.
But that would prevent them from sellin 700 bucks worth of WraithKnights/riptides to every person feeling like a douche, so it will probably never happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 10:26

SOB Storm Botler and Heavy Bolter spam ruins this list.......

20 HB's in back with a Cannons and a couple Imagifiers will be on average 72 shots with re-roll hits.

Then you have 5 SOB with 3 Storm Bolters is 51pts

You take 2 Brigades, this list x2, its 996pts (1992pts total)

Canoness - x3
Imagifiers - x3
BSS: 5man, x3 Storm Bolters - x6
Dominion: x5, x5 Storm Bolters - x3
Retributor: x5, X4 HB's - x3

In total thats
7 AoF attempts (1 on 2+ 6 on 4+) - Use dbl shooting
66 Storm Bolters - 132 Shots
24 Heavy Bolters - 72 shots
Everyone is re-roll 1's to hit.

On average 4 units gets to shoot 2x (always pick HB's turns 1-2)
4 units of HB's (36shots) x2 (72 shots), +2 more units of HB's = 96 shots

In total turn 1, 96 HB's and 132 Storm Bolters, you can EASILY do this for 2 turns without birds melee'ing you.

Realing fast math

With Re-roll 1's, all S4/5 (T2 so wounds on 2's)
96 shots, 75 hits, 62 wounds
132 shots, 99 hits, 83 wounds
Total wounds turn 1 = 145
Total dead Birds = 36 on turn 1

Turn 2, BAM! Rapid fire range! lets say you only have 1/2 in range is 144 SB shots now.

Buy turn 4 if you keep the HB's out of melee, SB's got to Rapid fire once and some got into melee, and turn 3 1/2 your BSS squads in melee other 1/2 shooting Rabid Fire you will kill something like 160-165 Bases.
160-165 Dead Bases by turn 4 (on averages without Command point Re-rolls for AoF's)

Edit: IDK if it would be better, but you couldjust take all HB's Ret squsds (Heavy Deatchment, and have Canoness for re-rolls still and the 6 Imagifiers for AoF's) and get 3 turns before being melee and you can have death Cult Assassin's in front to stop charges, this might be the best way, but sense i have like 30 SB's i did SB math.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 11:59

The competitive players are basically upset because this is worse than barkstars. Barkstars were boring to play and to play against, and this is not only just as broken but it's also ridiculously tedious for everyone involved. I created this monster to be my tournament list because that's all I had fun with and I wanted other people to use birds too for the sheer spectacle. Now every tournament table is going to be a traffic jam of birds.

@CptMetal wrote:
Fair enough. Sorry @TeenageAngst
There need some point adjustments and something discouraging people from spam like the Magic mechanic of 4 times the same card maximum

The birds do *not* need a points adjustment. The issue is not their points, the issue is the game allows them to do things they were never intended to do. There is no way on god's green earth a S2 unit should be able to reliably injure a Knight Titan. There is virtually no response to their sheer numbers because ID, templates, tank shock, and blasts are all gone. If you give birds a price hike that's only going to kick the can down to Conscripts, and then Gretchen, and then Tau Drones, and then Scarabs, and then even more Brimstones, etc.

What we need are tools to deal with this beyond 8 friggin pages.

@amishprn86 mass bolter fire is indeed a weakness. However it isn't enough. The bird lists are universally supported by long range fire that will eat Sisters for breakfast.

Quote :
I have been running 20 Razorwing flocks and had pretty good success with them so far. 2x10 isn't spamming which I like. And 20 flocks is not boring either!

I run about 30 in a friendly 2000 point list. It's enough for it to be effective without being overbearing. My opponents say it's tough but not ridiculous.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 12:29

@TeenageAngst wrote:


The birds do *not* need a points adjustment. The issue is not their points, the issue is the game allows them to do things they were never intended to do. There is no way on god's green earth a S2 unit should be able to reliably injure a Knight Titan. There is virtually no response to their sheer numbers because ID, templates, tank shock, and blasts are all gone. If you give birds a price hike that's only going to kick the can down to Conscripts, and then Gretchen, and then Tau Drones, and then Scarabs, and then even more Brimstones, etc.

What we need are tools to deal with this beyond 8 friggin pages.

This. And to me it looks like the current rules for "blast" weaponry are very bad, especially in low BS armies. Those weapons lost their role (anti masses), and didn't actually gain a new role. Instead, they just became "it's like other weapons, except more random lol! ".
I would love to see them change it to something like 1 shooting attack per model of the target unit, or per 2 models for a small blast, with maximas depending on the weapons themselves. That would give them the utility the Void Mine currently has, but without the mortal wounds and all.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 15:02

Don't they have a very low leadership?
So if you kill just a few bases (like shooting with some Maines)the morale phase will kill several bases!
So the main problem is that they get the high leadership from an Archon or a beast master.
If you can kill them fast with sniper units the Flocks are no problem anymore.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 15:07

They are taking Yncarne and using Command points to not take Moral tests.

When you have 200 Birds you dont need to use Command points and the best use for them are Moral Auto Pass.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 15:57

And a beast master with +2Ld from drugs makes the birds LD9

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 17:00

I'm brand new to 40k, but I like the idea of anything can wound anything because there almost always a fluff way to explain it like drops of water cracking rocks just happening at a much faster rate. I think the problem lies in the list building mechanics. For open/narrative play bring w/e you want, it's intended for people to just hang out and have fun so you're just more likely to bring lists that are somewhat balanced both because its often more fluff friendly and you want your opponent to have fun. The idea of "battleforged" is intended for matched play and could easily be adjusted to address this withs caps and taxes. Changing battleforged rules to say something like "a battleforged army can take no more than 5 selections from a unit type would remove this type of army, as well as addressing MSU spam and opening up a myriad of different types of units to matched play because you can't spam your best units anymore all while maintaining the stated goal of keeping the core rules as short and simple as possible and not needing to make any massive overhauls that would require rebalancing the entire game.

At least thats what this newbie would like to see Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 17:32

The best Counter is Stone Crusher Fex with Bio-Flail

It completely Destroys these types of lists... I forgot all about it until I just told me Nid friend to take 6 of them for a tournament.

110pts Fex with Flail - Flail: For each model within 2" you gain that many attacks, 2 damage each.

You can get 10+ attacks that does 2 damage each every 2 wounds = a dead Base. Taking 10 is easy to do..... the bad thing is, Nids can take 600 points of Swarms too..... they can DS or Fly (they both are 11pts) they are S3/T3 also over S/T of 2.

Malonthropes as HQ's gives you -1 to hit against them as well, and they are cheap (90pts) so taking 2 of those, 10 Fex's and 70 Swarms Twisted Evil

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 21:52

The birds all move very fast and anyone worth their salt can mitigate the effectiveness of that unit by simply maneuvering the birds in such a way that if you were to charge a unit of them, you'd only get in base contact with 2 or 3 bases.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 23:09

But they have 60+ Fly Swarms too..... easy to tie up for a turn

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Fri Jul 14 2017, 23:35

I think I've found a counter. Can someone with free time confirm?

Rubric Marines from Thousand Suns.
The guys with the "any attack that deals 1 damage suffers a penalty of -1 on its to-Wound roll." Rule.

S2 v T4 means Razorwings wound on 6+.
Rule means this becomes a 7+.
Therefore Rubricae are immune to Razorwings.

I wouldn't think they're viable on their own as an anti-flock list, but they carry guns that can hurt flocks (bolter spam has already been discussed as useful, and Thousand Sun Bolters are better (aren't they?). They'd still suffer to the fire support usually brought alongside a Flock list, but they could act as bubble wrap for any Chaos weapons, to keep Flock spam from charging in and locking up gun platforms or Psykers.

One massive donut of various maxed out Units of Rubricae to hold back the tide.

Now; anyone with suggestions for what to put in the bubble? And can we make a list like this viable against non-flock spam lists?


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