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TeenageAngst
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Mon Jul 24 2017, 22:45

The best part is, now that we have a living ruleset, we no longer have to wait 2 months for a new book to come out to buff the crap out of a couple factions to boost sales. It can happen every other week as they churn the meta!

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Mppqlmd
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Mon Jul 24 2017, 22:50

Next step : every tournament place will have a big screen displaying the latest FAQs and Erratums live. And those changements will be applied immediatly, even if you're in the middle of a game.
We have basically become traders, trying to speculate on how long one unit will remain playable before the next FAQ Smile

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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Mon Jul 24 2017, 23:10

Cant we get this topic locked? The list is dead, and now this thread just derailed to nerdrage...
Couse really... who thought the flocks wouldn't get nerfed? either in a faq or in the codex... hell even different podcasts warned you...
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 00:00

No, keep it open, this thread can just be where people whine about GW clearly nerfing their birds because they were bought as third party models while ignoring the fact that GW nerfed all-flier lists despite those consisting of nothing but expensive first-party models.

Maybe, just maybe, we can keep the nerdrage contained.
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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 01:00

mynamelegend wrote:
No, keep it open, this thread can just be where people whine about GW clearly nerfing their birds because they were bought as third party models while ignoring the fact that GW nerfed all-flier lists despite those consisting of nothing but expensive first-party models.

Maybe, just maybe, we can keep the nerdrage contained.


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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 01:26

Im happy i got 30 birds for 38USD even if they are 14pts.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 01:52

Mppqlmd wrote:
The only worse thing that could have happened to razorwing flocks in the FAQ would have been "erratum : the razorwing flocks no longer exist. Erase that entry from your indexes". And we all know that FAQ would have never happened if the razorwings spammer bought their models in the GW franchise. Which would have required to GW bothered to not sell a 7pts model individually, roughly 16 bucks a model.
So here it is :
- GW doesn't care about DE, and continues to sell a 16 bucks razorwing, although it makes as much sense as a 16 bucks resin Gretchin.
- 8th edition arrives, and they buff the Razorwing flocks hoping to sell more of those overpriced resin models.
- People find a cheap alternative that doesn't obligate you to sell your kidney to build an army, and start spamming Razorwings (just like everyone in 8th edition is spamming everything)
- GW realises "Oh crap, we are not making money out of this unit".
- GW removes the Razorwings from the game.

At what point are they acting like game designers that care about balance ?
They are building and shaping the game to maximize models sales. It's not about being incompetent, it's about being a fraud Smile

This is demonstrably false. The same round of FAQs also hard-nerfed flyerspam, which GW absolutely was making money on, hand over fist.

The alternative viewpoint, that GW looked at actual competitive results (like the ATC, f'rex) and took steps to neutralize the worst of the cheese lists (like, you know, a responsible game company) actually fits the facts better.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 03:38

Even if that was true mppqlmd, it's not fraud - it's business in a capitalist market

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 08:44

Well really? Did they look at the tournament ? No they just "applied" what has been said to them through different medias. Unfortunately, it should have concerned a lot more units than just "flocks" and a new special sudden death rule for flyers. Overall the Flyers weren't nerfed at all...

I do not think people complain about the nerf of flocks. They should come with a nerf with all things that have the same issue then at the same time. Unfortunately, it seems that they nerfed "due to whiners" and not for game-balance and design. Flocks needed to have a nerf but many others do too. HOpefully it will come in time.

I am pretty sure (and in my own opinion) the codex will prove to be worse than indexes concerning balance. I do know that this game has no balance and as it is GW it will never have any, so I am not counting on it but they are finally doing the normal things by updating quickly things. I think it could have been done better before release but hell, it is GW, they do not seem to have process, organisation on rule-writing Smile
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Keast Kannegaard
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 09:05

Well im not even sure what this thread is about anymore... :S
Flocks were too good for their costs, so they were nerfed... maybe a bit too much, but even TA agreed on Flocks being way to good, to the point of game breaking, so thats why they were nerfed. What more are there to discuss? Other than ofc who can build up the most nerd rage against GW...

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 09:06

Flyers themselve are not nerfed, but pure flyer lists are not viable anymore.
Just take out the ground troops and he instantly loses is quite a big nerf for those lists with tripple flyer detachments and nothing else.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 10:39

Jimsolo wrote:
This is demonstrably false. The same round of FAQs also hard-nerfed flyerspam, which GW absolutely was making money on, hand over fist.

The alternative viewpoint, that GW looked at actual competitive results (like the ATC, f'rex) and took steps to neutralize the worst of the cheese lists (like, you know, a responsible game company) actually fits the facts better.

There is a huge difference in what they did to flyers, and what they did to RW. With flyers, they called an old rule that prevented flyers from being spammed, and thus nerfed the spam without nerfing the model. That is great game design.
With RW, the message is very clear : "We don't want to see your zombicide crap in our tournaments anymore". So they removed them from existence.
I expected (and hoped for) RW to get nerfed. Heck, i'm not even a RW spammer myself ! But GW's job was to hurt the spam without making the model unusable for other purposes (bubble wrapping, for example).  

What was this unit supposed to be ? A cheap meatshield/tarpit. And then someone realized it had great offensive power, coz 8 attacks on a 7pts models is nuts. So to reajust that, GW should have made it WS 6+. Or give it 4-5 attacks. But no, they doubled the cost. Now the unit is no longer spammable, but it's also way too expensive for bubblewrapping/tarpiting. Instead of breaking the spam, they broke the model.

So i'm not crying over my broken strategy, i never fielded more than 12 birds, and i field them for what they were designed : cheap bubblewrap for elite units. I'm crying over the fact that GW applied an intelligent and reasonned rule to tackle the flyer spam without hurting the models, and then "oh, that zombicide crap ? Double the cost, that'll teach them to buy in other stores". I'm crying over the fact that GW doesn't care about removing an entry of our codex No
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:14

What about SoB then

51pts for 5 T3 SM with a 6++ and 3 Storm Bolters.

40pts to shoot 2x (AoF)

You can literally have 120 BSS models with 3/5 armed with 2 shot bolters, all re-rolls 1 and 1/2 of them gets to shoot 2x, 3+/6++ saves.

Or take squads of 4 HB's as well, tho they cost 30pts more total. so instead of 120 you'll have 90 bodies and something like 75 HB's, its 350 HB's shots @ S5 -1

IDK about you but 350 S5 -1ap, re-roll's 1 at 36" on 3/6++ armor seems fun.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:16

Exactly.

Now RW spam is dead another spam army will rise... until it is nerfed.

The problem is with the core rules. Its just bad design.

I don't believe GW have any idea what they are doing.


Last edited by Painjunky on Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:20; edited 2 times in total
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:16

Mppqlmd wrote:
Jimsolo wrote:
This is demonstrably false. The same round of FAQs also hard-nerfed flyerspam, which GW absolutely was making money on, hand over fist.

The alternative viewpoint, that GW looked at actual competitive results (like the ATC, f'rex) and took steps to neutralize the worst of the cheese lists (like, you know, a responsible game company) actually fits the facts better.

There is a huge difference in what they did to flyers, and what they did to RW. With flyers, they called an old rule that prevented flyers from being spammed, and thus nerfed the spam without nerfing the model. That is great game design.
With RW, the message is very clear : "We don't want to see your zombicide crap in our tournaments anymore". So they removed them from existence.
I expected (and hoped for) RW to get nerfed. Heck, i'm not even a RW spammer myself ! But GW's job was to hurt the spam without making the model unusable for other purposes (bubble wrapping, for example).

What was this unit supposed to be ? A cheap meatshield/tarpit. And then someone realized it had great offensive power, coz 8 attacks on a 7pts models is nuts. So to reajust that, GW should have made it WS 6+. Or give it 4-5 attacks. But no, they doubled the cost. Now the unit is no longer spammable, but it's also way too expensive for bubblewrapping/tarpiting. Instead of breaking the spam, they broke the model.

So i'm not crying over my broken strategy, i never fielded more than 12 birds, and i field them for what they were designed : cheap bubblewrap for elite units. I'm crying over the fact that GW applied an intelligent and reasonned rule to tackle the flyer spam without hurting the models, and then "oh, that zombicide crap ? Double the cost, that'll teach them to buy in other stores". I'm crying over the fact that GW doesn't care about removing an entry of our codex No

They have not removed anything from our codex. They have increased the cost of a blatantly undercosted unit. Have they gone too far? Maybe, but only by 1 or 2 points. Is the unit now unusable? No. Do you want to spam it to the exclusion of pretty much everything else? No.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:18

I understand core rules are "bad" but honestly they also are great, i love many parts of the rules, i love that swarms dont ID all the time, i love how CC works now (holy cow its my favorite part now).

Does it need a few tweaks? yes, but besides some spam players and tournaments, its the most fun i've had in 40k.

Edi: I agree with @Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:39

Where are the Flyers Nerfed ? "The risk of being tabled because nothing is on the table anymore"... Well, the point of the 4/5 Stormraven was to tarpit ennemy in one or 2 turns. I do believe that they will still use it in tournament as you can still field about 4/5 Flyers and you know that your characters won't die (just put a culexus in the back of the table behind some low cost unit out of LoS and its almost a win, and if you do not have the initiative you just need to put down the troops in your transport in your turn.

The razorwing flocks needed a nerf, but a different one. The point cost increase is just wrong (should have been to 10-11 pts) and it lacks equity with other issues/models that prove also to be overpowered. Maybe we ask too much too fast Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:45

Count Adhemar wrote:

They have not removed anything from our codex. They have increased the cost of a blatantly undercosted unit. Have they gone too far? Maybe, but only by 1 or 2 points. Is the unit now unusable? No. Do you want to spam it to the exclusion of pretty much everything else? No.

If this is a legit way of handling a spam situation, why didn't they increase the points of Stormravens ? Why do they invest time and effort to tackle Space Marines abuses without hurting the space marines experience, and tackle the Dark Eldar abuse with a big kick in the nuts ?

Quote :
Does it need a few tweaks?
I feel like this balance problem wouldn't have been that huge if they kept blasts/templates, or if they found some way to make blast weapons more appealing. If blasts inflicted 1 shot per 2 models on the target unit (max 5), and large blasts 1 shot per model (max 10), this whole brimstone/conscript/razorwing meta would never have existed.


Last edited by Mppqlmd on Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:53; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:46

I agree as well.

Is it perfectly balanced, no certainly not.
Is it perfectly possible to break the game when you try, yes certainly.
Is it possible to break the game without trying, This is very difficult, except if you go for themed armies.
Is a lot more playable then before, yes certainly.
Has any balanced non spam army now a reasonable chance at winning against another non spam army, yes (well Maybe Tau are left behind a little bit)
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 11:54

Mppqlmd wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:

They have not removed anything from our codex. They have increased the cost of a blatantly undercosted unit. Have they gone too far? Maybe, but only by 1 or 2 points. Is the unit now unusable? No. Do you want to spam it to the exclusion of pretty much everything else? No.

If this is a legit way of handling a spam situation, why didn't they increase the points of Stormravens ? Why do they invest time and effort to tackle Space Marines abuses without hurting the space marines experience, and tackle the Dark Eldar abuse with a big kick in the nuts ?

Very good point.

Why were stormravens not increased in points. They certainly should be. scratch
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 12:01

Painjunky wrote:
Mppqlmd wrote:
Count Adhemar wrote:

They have not removed anything from our codex. They have increased the cost of a blatantly undercosted unit. Have they gone too far? Maybe, but only by 1 or 2 points. Is the unit now unusable? No. Do you want to spam it to the exclusion of pretty much everything else? No.

If this is a legit way of handling a spam situation, why didn't they increase the points of Stormravens ? Why do they invest time and effort to tackle Space Marines abuses without hurting the space marines experience, and tackle the Dark Eldar abuse with a big kick in the nuts ?

Very good point.

Why were stormravens not increased in points. They certainly should be. scratch

And the answer is : third party models.
If i'm not mistaken, RW are the only unit (not characters) whose points have been touched in the FAQ/erratum. They adjusted weapons here and there, but modifying the cost of a unit ? That's the only case i think. Because they just want to discourage you from buying Zombicide. This never was about balance Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 12:08

Nah they also made the purestrain genestealers a different point cost again.

They went from 18 (way to much) to 10 (the first errata) to 15 now (a lot but in line with other cult units).
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 12:09

Given that we've had 2 FAQs already and the game's not even been out 6 weeks yet, I don't think we can rule out further points adjustments, including maybe the Stormraven.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 12:11

|Meavar wrote:
Nah they also made the purestrain genestealers a different point cost again.

They went from 18 (way to much) to 10 (the first errata) to 15 now (a lot but in line with other cult units).
Okay, my bad. I was merely thinking of the Brimstone and conscript players painting more and more models for their next tournament jocolor
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing flock spam - its amazing   Tue Jul 25 2017, 12:14

I think the 14 point is a lot, but if they kept the unit size 1-12 it might have been ok. 14 points to get a 19" radius circle of no deep strike and claim an objective is quite ok.
But jeah with a bit of luck they migh reduce the price to a normal 10-12.
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