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 Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets

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DingK
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PostSubject: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Sat Jun 24 2017, 21:53

Here's a rules question a friend and I ran into last night. Already posted it to the 40K FB page, will post a reply if I get one.

Grotesques wield Flesh Gauntlets. S*, those always wound on the roll of a 4+. However, Grotesques have S5 and can wound T4 and below on a 3+...
What is the required roll to wound? Keeping in mind their only other weapon is a Monstrous Cleaver (an extra attack at their own strength), and they have no other weapon options to benefit from their strength.
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Bibitybopitybacon
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Sat Jun 24 2017, 22:52

Isn't the cleaver-1 so too?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Sun Jun 25 2017, 01:28

As far as I understand, you have to make the attacks with a weapon you have on your profile. You are assumed to have a CCW only if you don't have a melee weapon on your profile.

Therefore you could choose for each of the normal attacks to use either the Flesh Gauntlet or the Monstrous Cleaver, along with the bonus Monstrous Cleaver attack.

In the case of Grotesques, the mortal wound chance from the Flesh Gauntlet with a fixed hit roll is better than wounding on a 3+ anyway.

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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Sun Jun 25 2017, 21:07

Got confirmation from the Warhammer 40K FB team that the 4+ stays a 4+.

I guess my confusion came down to two things:
- I misinterpreted the Monstrous Cleaver's ability to have it be one attack with that weapon, period. Thinking about it a bit more, it's one EXTRA attack with the Cleaver; the original 4 can be distributed however you'd like.
- I miss old Poison, which wounded on the bracket value unless your Strength allowed better.

When it comes down to it, the weapons Grots use depend on the target. T5 and over, definitely Gauntlets. T4 and under, it depends on their armour save. If they've got a good invul save (storm shield for a 3++) then definitely Gauntlets for the mortal wounds.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Mon Jun 26 2017, 04:19

@DingK wrote:
Got confirmation from the Warhammer 40K FB team that the 4+ stays a 4+.

I guess my confusion came down to two things:
- I misinterpreted the Monstrous Cleaver's ability to have it be one attack with that weapon, period. Thinking about it a bit more, it's one EXTRA attack with the Cleaver; the original 4 can be distributed however you'd like.
- I miss old Poison, which wounded on the bracket value unless your Strength allowed better.

When it comes down to it, the weapons Grots use depend on the target. T5 and over, definitely Gauntlets. T4 and under, it depends on their armour save. If they've got a good invul save (storm shield for a 3++) then definitely Gauntlets for the mortal wounds.

You also get more attacks if you allocate at least some of your attacks to cleavers, because of their "+1A if you use this weapon" rule. So, you have to decide whether or not the extra attacks are worth it in any given situation. Against vehicles, you definitely want to use cleavers.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Mon Jun 26 2017, 09:15

You don´t have to allocate attacks to the cleaver because it says "each time the bearer fights, it can make one additional attack with this weapon".
So nothing about being forced to use this weapon at all.
Only for the one extra attack.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Mon Jun 26 2017, 15:55

@CptMetal wrote:
You don´t have to allocate attacks to the cleaver because it says "each time the bearer fights, it can make one additional attack with this weapon".
So nothing about being forced to use this weapon at all.  
Only for the one extra attack.

I interpreted that to mean that the 'additional attack' would only be applied if you are using the weapon, which would require you to attack with it. Obviously, I prefer your interpretation.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Mon Jun 26 2017, 16:24

Same thing can be applied to Lilith Hesperax, we had a discussion in another thread about it, and decided that Cpt Metal's interpretation is correct.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Tue Jun 27 2017, 09:57

Got to disagree. The words "with this weapon" are fairly important there.
"Each time the bearer fights, it can make one additional attack with this weapon".
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Tue Jun 27 2017, 10:03

That's what he's saying. The requirement for getting the extra attacks is that the bearer is fighting. When he does so, he gets a bonus attack which must be with that weapon. Any and all other attacks though, can be with any other weapon the model has.

Lelith, for example, can get 7 attacks in total. 4 base, +1 for 2 penetrating blades and +2 for her hair. But those 2 extra attacks must be using the specific weapon as it says "with this weapon". So 5 attacks with the penetrating blades and 2 with her hair.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Tue Jun 27 2017, 11:21

Check the wording of titanic feat, and the cleaver and the scorpion claw.
Each time the wearer fights, ... (always when you fight, and you have the weapon)
When you make an attack with this weapon, ... (For each attack made with this weapon)
When attacking with this weapon, ... (Only when you allocate attacks to the weapon)
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Tue Jun 27 2017, 11:58

Monstrous Cleaver is of the "Each time the bearer fights" kind so does not require you to do anything other than have the weapon and use the statline purely for the extra attack granted.

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Tue Jun 27 2017, 13:50

This is why USRs were developed in the first place. It's like they forgot about all of the rules arguments from third edition when there were a bunch of rules that were worded similarly, but not exactly. Of the aspects of more recent editions, USRs weren't really what contributed to 'rules bloat', and they probably should have kept them in - you can always list exceptions on the data sheet.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Grotesques with Flesh Gauntlets   Tue Jun 27 2017, 14:07

USR's were never the problem, it was the ability of characters to grant them to units and vice versa.

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