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 Yvraine leading DE

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Yvraine leading DE   Wed Jun 21 2017, 23:43

I'd like to try our Yvraine in a DE (or at least mostly DE) list, but I've got a few questions about her and her army:

- If she's footslogging (and I frequently see people saying she should), I'd have thought she'd want to cast Word of the Phoenix on her unit . . . but that would lead to said unit leaving her behind. Am I missing something?

- Is it worth taking a transport to get her and her unit into position on the first turn (even though it will leave her unable to cast for that turn)?

- Other than Beasts, are there any DE units that work well with her, or do I need to go to Harlequins or Eldar to find a good retinue?

- Word of the Phoenix seems mandatory, but which of her other two powers would you recommend?

- Rules question - can you cast Word of the Phoenix on units that don't have the Strength from Death rule?

- If I go for a predominantly shooty list, would you recommend cheap units like warriors (to give me more units to trigger and trigger off Strength from Death) or elite units like Blasterborn (fewer units but more powerful when they do trigger)?

- Any other advice regarding Yvraine and/or Strength from Death lists would be most welcome, as I wasn't playing when they emerged in 7th so never got a chance to see or thy them.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 00:17

I see no rules reason that Word of the Phoenix wouldn't be a valid option for any Ynnari unit, even if they don't have Strength From Death.

Part of the problem of Yvraine and DE is that the new PFP mostly benefits the kinda melee units you'd normally want as en entourage, who would lose out on re-rolling charges and 2+ to hit in exchange for Strength From Death and being valid targets for WotP. Furthermore, enemies would have to be pretty dumb to sit around in close combat until your next turn to let you attack twice in melee with WotP, which leaves you with using it to move a bit faster, offsetting the loss of PFP somewhat.

The shooty DE units benefit more from SFD, but Yvraine is sufficiently pricey that you'd be better off taking another shooty DE unit over her. Mind, FoC limits are a thing, and Yvraine fills one of our otherwise utterly terrible HQ slots. (Besides, most Craftworlders benefit more from SFD than our infantry do, simply because they've got more super-specialized killy squads - boosting a unit of Fire Dragons simply does way more than boosting a unit of Trueborn)

One of the better uses for Yvraine in a DE army, to me, seems to be to hang her back and double the firepower of a Ravager or some DL Scourges, as well as acting as light anti-assault for the backfield. She simply does way less for our ordinary infantry than she would for CWE infantry, so why bother trying to make her fit that role? (I may actually try this out sometime soon, since it'd be a good use of my Lhamaean model and it'd fill one of those atrocious HQ slots we're stuck with)

As for powers - Gaze of Ynnead is too hard to get off for the benefit it provides, particularly since Smite exists. You're almost always better off with Ancestor's Grace (which incidentally synergizes well with WotP).
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 00:33

I will answer a few of these best I can

@The Shredder wrote:

- If she's footslogging (and I frequently see people saying she should), I'd have thought she'd want to cast Word of the Phoenix on her unit . . . but that would lead to said unit leaving her behind. Am I missing something?

So she can't 'join' a unit, but rather be near one. Note that Soul Bursting does not require a unit to move. The could, or they could use shoot, or assault. (Or use psychic powers but meh - the rule of only one power per turn really hurts here).


@The Shredder wrote:

- Is it worth taking a transport to get her and her unit into position on the first turn (even though it will leave her unable to cast for that turn)?

That really depends on what you are trying to get her to do - but I think most armies really want to go for an alpha strike. To that end, getting double movement or double shooting T1 will be more benifical.


@The Shredder wrote:

- Other than Beasts, are there any DE units that work well with her, or do I need to go to Harlequins or Eldar to find a good retinue?

I see her having better synergy with Eldar and Harlies - although really anything you'd like to get an extra soul burst or two would enjoy having her around. TrueBorn on foot, Scourges, and even Reavers could get some use out of it. But a lot of our best combinations are, for some reason, banned. Incubi, Mandrakes, and Grots are all left out in the cold here.


@The Shredder wrote:

- Word of the Phoenix seems mandatory, but which of her other two powers would you recommend?

Neither real stand out to me, but both of them can be  good in the right circumstances. Most things DE wise that would really have benefited from Ancestor's Grace, can't be taken (See the list above). TBH, Triple Dissie Ravagers might really enjoy it... especially if they have not moved. Gaze is basically smite, but slightly different. Two much randomness for me and I think smite would be more reliable over all. The only real selling point is that smite must target the closest unit while gaze does not.


@The Shredder wrote:

- Rules question - can you cast Word of the Phoenix on units that don't have the Strength from Death rule?

There is actually a fair bit of debate about this, and I expect it to be FAQ'd soon. RAW yes, RAI no.



@The Shredder wrote:

- If I go for a predominantly shooty list, would you recommend cheap units like warriors (to give me more units to trigger and trigger off Strength from Death) or elite units like Blasterborn (fewer units but more powerful when they do trigger)?

My thought is to do a mix. Screen with easily kill able, and hit hard with others. Remember that you must be within 7" to trigger it, so it's not going to help to much with long range shooting. TBH, some melee unit are deadly with it. A group of shinning spears right now could wreck some serious face with it.

But, the biggest thing is that if you are waiting for your units to die to trigger, you are relying on your opponent to do what you want, whereas if you trigger it its 100% up to you (And the ever fickle dice gods)


@The Shredder wrote:

- Any other advice regarding Yvraine and/or Strength from Death lists would be most welcome, as I wasn't playing when they emerged in 7th so never got a chance to see or thy them.

Bikes do fairly well, and Melee units in particular could do some serious damage. I used to run Blades of Fate (Harlie Bikes) who would fly across the board, annihilate a weak combat-esq squad the Soul burst to turbo boost behind some cover elsewhere and avoid retaliation. Much the same could be done now with Shinning spears.[/quote]
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 05:05

To be fair incubi are not excluded.

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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:11

@mynamelegend wrote:
I see no rules reason that Word of the Phoenix wouldn't be a valid option for any Ynnari unit, even if they don't have Strength From Death.

Well that's useful to know.

@mynamelegend wrote:

The shooty DE units benefit more from SFD, but Yvraine is sufficiently pricey that you'd be better off taking another shooty DE unit over her. Mind, FoC limits are a thing, and Yvraine fills one of our otherwise utterly terrible HQ slots.

Yeah, that was basically my thinking. I know our HQs are cheaper, but they also bore me to death. Yrvane at least has a couple of interesting rules and abilities.

@mynamelegend wrote:
(Besides, most Craftworlders benefit more from SFD than our infantry do, simply because they've got more super-specialized killy squads - boosting a unit of Fire Dragons simply does way more than boosting a unit of Trueborn)

Piddle. I know you're right, but piddle all the same.

@mynamelegend wrote:

One of the better uses for Yvraine in a DE army, to me, seems to be to hang her back and double the firepower of a Ravager or some DL Scourges, as well as acting as light anti-assault for the backfield. She simply does way less for our ordinary infantry than she would for CWE infantry, so why bother trying to make her fit that role? (I may actually try this out sometime soon, since it'd be a good use of my Lhamaean model and it'd fill one of those atrocious HQ slots we're stuck with)

That sounds like a good tactic, but I'm a bit concerned about having her so isolated. It seems like she'd be an easy target for seep striking units.

@mynamelegend wrote:

As for powers - Gaze of Ynnead is too hard to get off for the benefit it provides, particularly since Smite exists. You're almost always better off with Ancestor's Grace (which incidentally synergizes well with WotP).

Okay, that's great. Cheers.

@Faitherun wrote:
So she can't 'join' a unit, but rather be near one. Note that Soul Bursting does not require a unit to move. The could, or they could use shoot, or assault. (Or use psychic powers but meh - the rule of only one power per turn really hurts here).

That's true.

@Faitherun wrote:

That really depends on what you are trying to get her to do - but I think most armies really want to go for an alpha strike. To that end, getting double movement or double shooting T1 will be more benifical.

Okay, I'll try that then.

@Faitherun wrote:

I see her having better synergy with Eldar and Harlies - although really anything you'd like to get an extra soul burst or two would enjoy having her around. TrueBorn on foot, Scourges, and even Reavers could get some use out of it. But a lot of our best combinations are, for some reason, banned. Incubi, Mandrakes, and Grots are all left out in the cold here.

Incubi are allowed. It's only Drazhar who's banned (for reasons that elude me).

@Faitherun wrote:

Neither real stand out to me, but both of them can be  good in the right circumstances. Most things DE wise that would really have benefited from Ancestor's Grace, can't be taken (See the list above). TBH, Triple Dissie Ravagers might really enjoy it... especially if they have not moved. Gaze is basically smite, but slightly different. Two much randomness for me and I think smite would be more reliable over all. The only real selling point is that smite must target the closest unit while gaze does not.

Okay, I'll probably go with Ancestor's Grace then.

@Faitherun wrote:

There is actually a fair bit of debate about this, and I expect it to be FAQ'd soon. RAW yes, RAI no.

Hmm, that's a bit of a shame. I'll ask my friends and see which ruling they favour.

@Faitherun wrote:

My thought is to do a mix. Screen with easily kill able, and hit hard with others. Remember that you must be within 7" to trigger it, so it's not going to help to much with long range shooting. TBH, some melee unit are deadly with it. A group of shinning spears right now could wreck some serious face with it.

Okay, I'll give that a try, though it might depend on what I can fit in. Razz

@Faitherun wrote:

But, the biggest thing is that if you are waiting for your units to die to trigger, you are relying on your opponent to do what you want, whereas if you trigger it its 100% up to you (And the ever fickle dice gods)

Good point.

@Faitherun wrote:

Bikes do fairly well, and Melee units in particular could do some serious damage. I used to run Blades of Fate (Harlie Bikes) who would fly across the board, annihilate a weak combat-esq squad the Soul burst to turbo boost behind some cover elsewhere and avoid retaliation. Much the same could be done now with Shinning spears.

That's good to know. I'll proxy some bikes and see how they perform.


Thanks for the advice, guys. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:57

I found gaze of ynnead to be quite handy actually.

Now my force contains no other ynnari so of course WotP has little value to me, but the ability to pick out characters at 18 inches to throw mortal wounds at is no small thing.

Also with her gyrinx the casting value of 8 is statistically likely.

Unrelated to gaze but her gyrinx also vastly increases her chance to overcharge smite (3/12 rather than 2/12) and because perils are tied to the die roll and not the casting value she suffers no increased risk of peril, making her a fairly competent blast caster with decent rolls.

All this while being reasonably threatening in CC and providing psyker defense to an army that may otherwise lack it.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 11:03

Hmm, maybe I should try and include a cheap psyker and have them die when near Yvraine. That way she can get all 3 powers. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 16:59

She might enjoy the bubble wrap of a warlock council... Would be a very tough unit, although I am not sure how effective it'd be
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 17:02

Are able to take them solo and keep our PFP. Or do we sacrifice battleforge and lose CPs?
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Yvraine leading DE   Thu Jun 22 2017, 17:08

@Subsanity wrote:
Are able to take them solo and keep our PFP.

It would be a Ynnari battlegroup anyway, so they wouldn't have PfP to begin with.
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