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 Countering Scions

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Arani
Hellion
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PostSubject: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:45

Howdy folks,

I'm trying to think up some good counters to a scion list I played against last weekend. But onto the fun, here's what the Scions brought to the table.

HQ: 2x tempestor primes with command rod upgrade (essentially giving them an extra order so each commander can issue two per turn.

Elites: 4x Scion platoon command squads, each with 4 plasma guns.

That was the nasty part of the list, the rest was just allied Krieg (basic AM for the game as we're still waiting for their rules to drop)

So here's what happened...

1.) Suddenly 16 plasma guns and 2 characters appear from deepstrike 9" away from my troops, all in rapid fire range.

2.) Both tempestor primes issue two orders both of which allow the commanded unit to re-roll 1's.

3.) All four squads open up with their plasma guns in overcharge mode, dishing out 32 shots of strength 8, ap -3, and doing two damage per shot.

Bear in mind... For everything I listed above, it costs just a little under 340 points.

Now of course, it's a one trick pony. Whatever they don't kill is most likely going to turn around and smash them into pink mist. But what can we do proactively to help minimize the damage we'll receive?

Thankfully our transports have invuln saves, which is definitely better than nothing, but the sheer amount of shots and damage per shot is still going to shred several of our vehicles or monsters.

But then I got to thinking after reading the most recent developer's FAQ (thing). According to what they put out, "to-hit" modifiers are taken into account after any rerolls have been done. Meaning that with out Venom's -1 to hit, if any of those plasma guns roll a 2, they should technically suffer from gets-hot and kill a few gunners.

Now granted, my interpretation of the FAQ could be flawed, but if that is the case, Venoms might be the go-to for a little extra protection.

So what do you guys think? I know Tau has their EWO upgrade, giving them a pseudo interceptor ability. But I haven't seen anything similar for anything Eldar related.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:48

Your interpretation of the rules is correct. Against a venom, plasma gets-hot on a 1 or 2.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:55

How is it that IG can deep strike all that stuff in and we can only deep strike Mandrakes and Scourges?

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 17:02

Can anyone with the Imperium II index confirm that the scion's deepstrike was played correctly in this instance? It seems odd that they'd be able to deepstrike with characters attached.
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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 17:06

@Adhemar I honestly think my scourge (personally, my favorite unit from our entire selection) are unfortunately going to be relegated to fighting with basic shardcarbines to put pressure on corners and the enemy's rear line.

Even when trying heatlances, I was super disappointed. Not only do you have to deepstrike more than 9" away (preventing melta range, barely, but still). But also the fact that heat Lance's are only strength 6 is a little underwhelming. You're going to need 5's to wound leman Russ tanks and your other usual targets. Whereas at least the Ravager (triple DL's) is cheaper and will probably put out better damage. Talk about a bummer.

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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 17:08

@Krayd

The tempestor prime, the command squad, and normal Scions have this deepstrike rule called "Aerial drop" which is just like our version.  It forces you to set them up at least 9" away from enemy forces. Aannddd... Can be done during any movement phase. (Albeit before turn 3 or 4, I can't remember the cut off point)

I also should've clarified that the character wasn't attached, but rather set up right behind the unit.

Oh and.. where before guard had to roll leadership for orders?  Yeah that's gone too by the way, it just goes off. But.. the target unit has to be less than 6" away from the officer giving the order.

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 18:07

20+flocks and a beast master. Tons of wounds to keep the scions aways from your forces. Or a least a little further down field outrip of rapid fire range

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 19:55

I dont know about your Gets Hot on 1 and 2s. I had thought that the "Reroll 1s" was specifically to help out plasma.

But ya, its a brutal tactic that absolutely works.

However, they can only get within 9", so screening your stuff with super cheap warriors will get our raiders out of rapid fire range. After that, we are looking at 32 shots that cause 2D each. Our vehicles have -1 to hit, then a ++ save. I can only see this taking out 1.5 raiders on a drop, and then all AM squads involved get greeted by the local Haemunculi with his Grot buddies. This is a lot of points to sink into a single volley of any weapon.
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RedRegicide
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 20:18

wracks as a screen. Hammy boosts them to T6, 5++, 6+++. And only one wound so the d2 is worthless

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colinsherlow
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 20:32

Razorwing flocks are cheap (same points as kabalites), are fast, have 4 wounds (great for a meat shield) and 8 attacks that reroll misses if the beast master is near buy.

20 flocks and a beast master will cost about 200points. Which is great and being a fast unit they can contribute to taking objectives as well.

20 flocks =80wounds

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 21:35

@fisheyes wrote:
I  dont know about your Gets Hot on 1 and 2s. I had thought that the "Reroll 1s" was specifically to help out plasma.

It still helps plasma - just not as much. Either way, no one is forcing anyone to fire their plasma overcharged.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Wed Jun 21 2017, 22:48

@fisheyes wrote:
I  dont know about your Gets Hot on 1 and 2s. I had thought that the "Reroll 1s" was specifically to help out plasma.

But ya, its a brutal tactic that absolutely works.

However, they can only get within 9", so screening your stuff with super cheap warriors will get our raiders out of rapid fire range. After that, we are looking at 32 shots that cause 2D each. Our vehicles have -1 to hit, then a ++ save. I can only see this taking out 1.5 raiders on a drop, and then all AM squads involved get greeted by the local Haemunculi with his Grot buddies. This is a lot of points to sink into a single volley of any weapon.

This case is explicitely stated as example in the FAQ. It get hot on a 1 or 2.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 00:29

@RedRegicide wrote:
wracks as a screen. Hammy boosts them to T6, 5++, 6+++. And only one wound so the d2 is worthless

T5 for Wracks.
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Ioseliani
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 03:40

Is there a cheap way to get razorwing flocks? Ive never seen them on sale except webstore for 20$ per base.
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 03:58

People around here are talking about the Zombicide "Murder of Crowz" box, you should be able to get values a little above a dollar per base.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 04:22

I have a local player using guard command squads - not scions - in a valkyrie...

3 units of 4 with plasma or melta in a single Valkyrie

Valk starts in hover mode

Moves 20" and the 3 squads jump out and shoot what ever needs to die. The valk then charges to block off access to the command squads or lock up what ever survived.

Next turn, the command squads reembark the valk who then falls back out of combat just fine and shoots... repeat T3 and T5

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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 06:31

@Massaen wrote:

3 units of 4 with plasma or melta in a single Valkyrie

Valk starts in hover mode

Moves 20" and the 3 squads jump out and shoot what ever needs to die. The valk then charges to block off access to the command squads or lock up what ever survived.

Next turn, the command squads reembark the valk who then falls back out of combat just fine and shoots... repeat T3 and T5

Are they actually able to hop out after the Valkyrie moves 20"? Is this is a special rule for the Valkyrie? Otherwise, they have to disembark before the Valk moves.. right?
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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 06:34

Grav-Chute Insertion special rule, though 1/6 models are slain outright and they gotta set up over 9'' from enemies.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Countering Scions   Thu Jun 22 2017, 07:43

But yes it is a valkery special rule.

I agree board control is really important.
Have some cheap troops (a few bases of flocks are great, you don't need 20 in my experience but normal units kabalites etc are also already automatically fulfilling this job partly for me) Right now most people use the plasma since it got really cheap for guard, so anything where plasma is overkill is good as a screen, and in your back lines everything helps to make sure he cannot deep strike. Sure you might lose some stuff at the outer edge but if it is cheap who cares?
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