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 Shutting down the enemy

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 11:38

The tactic of charging an enemy shooting unit in order to prevent it from firing is one that has gained a lot of ground in 8e. Most discussion on this tactic has revolved around Venoms or Raiders but I started to wonder if there were other options that might be better. So I took a look through the Aeldari vehicles and thought I might give Vypers a try. They're as fast as Venoms, cheaper, arguably better armed and are slightly tougher. Not as good in combat but the aim of this exercise isn't to cause casualties but to prevent your own units being shot at.

For 88 points you get 16" move, T5, 6 wounds with a 3+ save, armed with 2 shuriken cannon. They have the Fly keyword so they can fall back and shoot on the same turn. They aren't transports so we can't have troops inside them but DE probably don't want to charge until at least turn 2 or 3 in order to get the benefit of PfP.

What do you think?

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:10

I think all cheap vehicles work depending on what you are fighting.
High ap weapons, I say go for the starweaver. Otherwise use wichever vehicle is closer (viper or venom, falcon whatever, does not matter much). Or even warwalkers (does battle focus help since they do not count as having moved for nonheavy weapons they get to shoot as wel after a fallback?).
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:13

@Count Adhemar wrote:
The tactic of charging an enemy shooting unit in order to prevent it from firing is one that has gained a lot of ground in 8e. Most discussion on this tactic has revolved around Venoms or Raiders but I started to wonder if there were other options that might be better. So I took a look through the Aeldari vehicles and thought I might give Vypers a try. They're as fast as Venoms, cheaper, arguably better armed and are slightly tougher. Not as good in combat but the aim of this exercise isn't to cause casualties but to prevent your own units being shot at.

For 88 points you get 16" move, T5, 6 wounds with a 3+ save, armed with 2 shuriken cannon. They have the Fly keyword so they can fall back and shoot on the same turn. They aren't transports so we can't have troops inside them but DE probably don't want to charge until at least turn 2 or 3 in order to get the benefit of PfP.

What do you think?

Why not Starweavers? Sightly more expensive, but guess better overall
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:19

Starweavers are indeed better but I was mainly looking to keep it cheap. I'm also not convinced that having a transport carry out this role is the best option, due to the risk of it being surrounded and you losing all the occupants if it is destroyed.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:22

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Starweavers are indeed better but I was mainly looking to keep it cheap. I'm also not convinced that having a transport carry out this role is the best option, due to the risk of it being surrounded and you losing all the occupants if it is destroyed.

Mmm got it. I think pure DE should do this with units like Beastmasters, other than Venoms and Raiders. Otherwise, yes, guess we need to look about our highlights cousins
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:27

But there is no reason to keep them inside is there?

Consider it a 11 point upgrade for:
4++
-1 to hit for the enemy in the shooting phase
advance 6 (and charge in the same turn)
3 attacks on a 3+ with s5

Which seems reasonable to me and you still have the option to transport guys if you have to.

Beastmasters are to squishy. with 3 wounds and t3 they die to overwatch


Last edited by |Meavar on Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:37; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : No rising crescendo)
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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:30

Skyweavers.

18" move, 6" advance, 3 shots at -1 to hit, 2d6" charge, and 3 attacks of serious pain with Zephyrglaives. Bear in mind.. you can do all of that from turn 1 now due to the changes in rising crescendo (which yes, the bikes shockingly have now)

These dudes are utterly phenomenal.  I've got 12 of them that I run in a 1000pt list with a solitaire, death jester, and 2 troupe masters for backup, and I'm telling you.. they are amazing.  You're going to get first turn charges almost every single time, unless your opponent sits as far back in one corner as they can (like a particular, unfashionable race of fish people).


They are a little pricey, but if you give them a shot, I'm sure you'll quickly see just how phenomenal they really are.  Oh and also.. because of the changes to rising crescendo... They can bounce out of combat in the movement phase, shoot their opponent, and then charge them, or a different target.  

Seriously, nothing but great things to say about them.  (Other than star bolas... Those are just ungodly bad.  I mean seriously terrible.)

Oh and I forgot to mention it.. but also the skyweavers have an awesome invuln save, and a -1 to hit against enemy shooting.

I really want to throw a couple squads of them with fairly shooty kabal, just so they can tie up the enemy in close combat during their turn, and then hit and run during my own to maximize damage.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:34

@|Meavar wrote:
But there is no reason to keep them inside is there?[

A lot of talk has been about keeping troops inside and disembarking them the following turn

Quote :
Consider it a 11 point upgrade for:
4++
-1 to hit for the enemy in the shooting phase
advance 6 (and charge in the same turn)
3 attacks on a 3+ with s5

Which seems reasonable to me and you still have the option to transport guys if you have to.

Yeah, that's all nice and Starweavers are certainly viable. I'm not sure they can advance and charge though as they don't have Rising Crescendo.

Quote :
Beastmasters are to squishy. with 3 wounds and t3 they die to overwatch

Agree

@Arani wrote:
Skyweavers.

18" move, 6" advance, 3 shots at -1 to hit, 2d6" charge, and 3 attacks of serious pain with Zephyrglaives. Bear in mind.. you can do all of that from turn 1 now due to the changes in rising crescendo (which yes, the bikes shockingly have now)

That's a pretty good call. At 45ppm in units of 2+, a mininum unit is roughly the same cost as a Vyper but faster (due to guaranteed 6" advance and Rising Crescendo) with the same shooting output, better close combat, -1 to be hit in shooting phase and a 4++. Not as durable due to T4 but still not too shabby.

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Arani
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:46

But also... They even have 3 wounds now, another surprising change from last edition.

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Drugo
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Thu Jun 22 2017, 01:59

I see absolutely zero reasons to pick a Vyper over a Venom for the role you want them to fill.
They are not cheaper nor tougher, you are getting a 3+ save rather than a 4+ and losing -1 to hit and 5++...
Plus the Venom is a transport, which means you can have a unit inside when you are setting them on the table in the deployment phase and reduce the number of drops to have a better chance at going first.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Thu Jun 22 2017, 03:10

Beasts.... Flocks, Knymeraes etc...

a unit of 3 Flocks in 21pts and its 12 wounds, taking 3x3 of these guys (63pts) is extremely effective, cheap and they move 12"

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Subsanity
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Thu Jun 22 2017, 15:14

@amishprn86 wrote:
Beasts.... Flocks, Knymeraes etc...

a unit of 3 Flocks in 21pts and its 12 wounds, taking 3x3 of these guys (63pts) is extremely effective, cheap and they move 12"

I was thinking the same just pick up some zombicide murder of crowz for flocks
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Thu Jun 22 2017, 15:21

@Drugo wrote:
I see absolutely zero reasons to pick a Vyper over a Venom for the role you want them to fill.
They are not cheaper nor tougher, you are getting a 3+ save rather than a 4+ and losing -1 to hit and 5++...
Plus the Venom is a transport, which means you can have a unit inside when you are setting them on the table in the deployment phase and reduce the number of drops to have a better chance at going first.

I've already discussed why I don't think being a Transport is necessarily a bonus but I have to confess that I'd miscalculated the cost of the Venom, as I automatically included the second Splinter Cannon. Without that, they are 80 points vs 86 for the Vyper. So yeah, Vypers don't actually seem worth it but I'm still liking the idea of Skyweavers, not least because I have 6 of them fully painted Very Happy

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Shutting down the enemy   Thu Jun 22 2017, 17:10

Skyweavers are effective for their costs Smile

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