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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 11:59

Yes, but at the risk or repeating myself, what is an Ynnari Army? Is it an army made up entirely of Ynnari units. An army with at least one Ynnari unit? An army with at least one entire detachment of Ynnari units? We simply don't know!

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 12:03

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

You don't select a keyword at all though. Your units must simply all share a keyword, which they do.

BRB doesn't matter. Specific rules say you can't take Coven units etc. so that's that. If you take Army of the Reborn, you are playing Ynnari, as any unit eligible to be taken gets the Ynnari Keyword. If you are playing DE with Yvraine or CE with Viscarch, you are playing Aledari. Seriously, you are trying to prove that the spoon is a fork atm.

If you're just going to ignore the question of what constitutes an Ynnari army then yes, it's pretty simple. I prefer to consider all the elements of an issue rather than just picking the bits I want.

It may well be that you are right but unless we get an explanation of what an Ynnari army actually is we cannot tell either way, so please don't tell me it's clear as day when it manifestly isn't.

You miss my point entirely - it is clearly worded what constitutes an Ynnari army - Army of the Reborn rules say how you field them and with what restrictions. There is no ambiguity, weird wording or anything. I have no idea why do you even ask the question - Ynnari army consists of any Aledari models you choose, except the ones you can't take. You can take named Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari armies, thus turning the army into Aeldari Army. At this point, it just looks to me like you are trolling atm.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 12:20

@mightydoughnut wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

You don't select a keyword at all though. Your units must simply all share a keyword, which they do.

BRB doesn't matter. Specific rules say you can't take Coven units etc. so that's that. If you take Army of the Reborn, you are playing Ynnari, as any unit eligible to be taken gets the Ynnari Keyword. If you are playing DE with Yvraine or CE with Viscarch, you are playing Aledari. Seriously, you are trying to prove that the spoon is a fork atm.

If you're just going to ignore the question of what constitutes an Ynnari army then yes, it's pretty simple. I prefer to consider all the elements of an issue rather than just picking the bits I want.

It may well be that you are right but unless we get an explanation of what an Ynnari army actually is we cannot tell either way, so please don't tell me it's clear as day when it manifestly isn't.

You miss my point entirely - it is clearly worded what constitutes an Ynnari army - Army of the Reborn rules say how you field them and with what restrictions. There is no ambiguity, weird wording or anything. I have no idea why do you even ask the question - Ynnari army consists of any Aledari models you choose, except the ones you can't take. You can take named Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari armies, thus turning the army into Aeldari Army. At this point, it just looks to me like you are trolling atm.

A point has indeed been missed but it's not by me. The exact wording is

Quote :
With the exception of <listed units> any Aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army.


Be part of. Not constitute. Not form. Not make. Be part of. So I ask again, what is an Ynnari army? If you can't answer that question then please don't bother replying as it's getting boring going round and round in circles on this!

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 12:28

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

You don't select a keyword at all though. Your units must simply all share a keyword, which they do.

BRB doesn't matter. Specific rules say you can't take Coven units etc. so that's that. If you take Army of the Reborn, you are playing Ynnari, as any unit eligible to be taken gets the Ynnari Keyword. If you are playing DE with Yvraine or CE with Viscarch, you are playing Aledari. Seriously, you are trying to prove that the spoon is a fork atm.

If you're just going to ignore the question of what constitutes an Ynnari army then yes, it's pretty simple. I prefer to consider all the elements of an issue rather than just picking the bits I want.

It may well be that you are right but unless we get an explanation of what an Ynnari army actually is we cannot tell either way, so please don't tell me it's clear as day when it manifestly isn't.

You miss my point entirely - it is clearly worded what constitutes an Ynnari army - Army of the Reborn rules say how you field them and with what restrictions. There is no ambiguity, weird wording or anything. I have no idea why do you even ask the question - Ynnari army consists of any Aledari models you choose, except the ones you can't take. You can take named Ynnari characters in non-Ynnari armies, thus turning the army into Aeldari Army. At this point, it just looks to me like you are trolling atm.

A point has indeed been missed but it's not by me. The exact wording is

Quote :
With the exception of <listed units> any Aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army.


Be part of. Not constitute. Not form. Not make. Be part of. So I ask again, what is an Ynnari army? If you can't answer that question then please don't bother replying as it's getting boring going round and round in circles on this!

You ommitted the explaining part - With the exception of <listed units> any Aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. And after that we have a nice little tidbit "Any unit that does so gains the Ynnari keyword." Boom. Universe destroyed. Billions dead. Thus, any Aeldari model in Army of the Reborn is Ynnari, thus is Ynnari army. Clear. As. Day.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 13:53

And what about the rest of the army? The Aeldari units that you decide you do not wish to be Ynnari ("can be part of", so it's optional).
Not. Clear. As. Day. No. Matter. How. Often. You. Say. It. Is.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 13:59

Dude, you are british and yet you don't understand your own language? it does not let it be optional, it just allows you to pick an Aeldari unit that will be, and pay attention now - a part of your army. If it does, it becomes Ynnari. No place to misunderstand unless you are trolling or attempt to get a rulling that will allow you to cheat Haemies into Ynnari.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 14:26

@Count Adhemar An Ynnari army is an army that is linked by the Ynnari keyword specificly. Normally, you can choose which keyword you want to use to link your army together, but for the Ynnari, it has to be the Ynnari keyword.

As you have a Dark eldar army when you link your army with the "Drukhari" keyword, a Aeldari army when you link then with "Aeldari" keyword, or a space marine army when you link then with the "adeptus astarte" keyword. For example, if a blood angel player decide to link his army with the "blood angel chapter" keyword, he can call his army a "blood angel army". If he decide to add a model from another chapter, he can. He will link it with "adeptus astarte" keyword, but doing so, it won't be a "blood angel" army anymore. It will be a "Space marine" army.
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 14:33

@dumpeal wrote:
@Count Adhemar An Ynnari army is an army that is linked by the Ynnari keyword specificly. Normally, you can choose which keyword you want to use to link your army together, but for the Ynnari, it has to be the Ynnari keyword.

As you have a Dark eldar army when you link your army with the "Drukhari" keyword, a Aeldari army when you link then with "Aeldari" keyword, or a space marine army when you link then with the "adeptus astarte" keyword. For example, if a blood angel player decide to link his army with the "blood angel chapter" keyword, he can call his army a "blood angel army". If he decide to add a model from another chapter, he can. He will link it with "adeptus astarte" keyword, but doing so, it won't be a "blood angel" army anymore. It will be a "Space marine" army.

Yes, that exactly.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 14:39

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Dude, you are british and yet you don't understand your own language? it does not let it be optional, it just allows you to pick an Aeldari unit that will be, and pay attention now - a part of your army. If it does, it becomes Ynnari. No place to misunderstand unless you are trolling, are stupid or attempt to get a rulling that will allow you to cheat Haemies into Ynnari.

[Moderator Hat] You can leave the insults out of it. If you can't debate in a civil manner you should consider walking away[/Moderator Hat]

What you are saying is that not only can Ynnari not mix with Coven units, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine, they can in fact not mix with any other Aeldari units? In other words, an Ynnari army is an army that contains only Ynnari units. Which is (at last) an answer to the question I have asked about 500 times.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 14:46

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
Dude, you are british and yet you don't understand your own language? it does not let it be optional, it just allows you to pick an Aeldari unit that will be, and pay attention now - a part of your army. If it does, it becomes Ynnari. No place to misunderstand unless you are trolling, are stupid or attempt to get a rulling that will allow you to cheat Haemies into Ynnari.


What you are saying is that not only can Ynnari not mix with Coven units, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine, they can in fact not mix with any other Aeldari units? In other words, an Ynnari army is an army that contains only Ynnari units. Which is (at last) an answer to the question I have asked about 500 times.

Yes, that is exactly what i was saying from the start. You could've worded it less vaguely and this whole explanation mess would not happen.

Tl:Dr - If you pick Ynnari as your army, all your units are Ynnari, wheter they are Craftworld, Drukhari or Harlequin. If you pick Ynnari characters to any Aeldari army, be it Coven, Craftworld or House David Bowie, you are playing with Aeldari.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 14:48

@mightydoughnut wrote:
No place to misunderstand unless you are trolling or attempt to get a rulling that will allow you to cheat Haemies into Ynnari.

It wasn't him starting the Thread, it was me (non-british, but I like that country Smile ). So no trolling intended. I asked a question, nothing more nothing less. I did not intend to cheat anything because I don't see any huge advantage in fielding a haem in an army of Ynnari. His aura won't work on them and he is not that strong on himself.

The true reason: I like Talos, want to field two of them, but don't intend to give them any Ynnari-abilities.

Compared to some Craftworld units or the Avatar, the ban of coven units can only be explained by fluff reasons (my opinion).
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 15:05

@Endstation wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
No place to misunderstand unless you are trolling or attempt to get a rulling that will allow you to cheat Haemies into Ynnari.

It wasn't him starting the Thread, it was me (non-british, but I like that country Smile ). So no trolling intended. I asked a question, nothing more nothing less. I did not intend to cheat anything because I don't see any huge advantage in fielding a haem in an army of Ynnari. His aura won't work on them and he is not that strong on himself.

The true reason: I like Talos, want to field two of them, but don't intend to give them any Ynnari-abilities.

Compared to some Craftworld units or the Avatar, the ban of coven units can only be explained by fluff reasons (my opinion).

It was not amied at you, no worries, more of a general statment. I used to be a MTG judge for a living and any sort of rule-lawyering gets me really miffed. And yes, Covens are banned for fluff reasons mostly, as you could not pick them in 7th edition too in the same detachment/formation as Ynnari. They are finally balanced out a bit, as Wraithkngihts no longer get triggered from PfD.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Sat Jun 24 2017, 01:55

The suggestion that any disagreement from what you purport a rule to be is inherently rules lawyering or trolling is unacceptable anti-intellectualism and should not be tolerated.

I concur with the count , and believe that your definition of army faction has no basis in the rules as written, which should be the only metric of note in this particular sub.
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Sat Jun 24 2017, 05:07

First off. Yikes mah dudes. The fluff for the Ynnari stated that the covens had an extreme animosity towards everything the Ynnari stood for right? So we can safely make the assumption that Rules as Intended (RAI) GW does not want us to run Coven with Ynnari. Not in a detachment, not in an army.

Sadly, any assumptions we make about RAI is at the end of the day just an assumption and we must play with how the rules are actually written. I believe that the rules clearly stated that the units chosen to join the Ynnari detachment GAIN the ynnead key word and that it DOES NOT REPLACE the Aeldari key word. Thus going by the rules as written, as long as the army shares a keyword they are battle forged.

Follow up question though, do the Ynnari have the Aeldari key word?

P.s. @Endstation I see you are a newer member of the community. I welcome thee, fellow archon, to our humble abode, I apologize for the mess.
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Sat Jun 24 2017, 08:55

@Barrywise wrote:
First off. Yikes mah dudes. The fluff for the Ynnari stated that the covens had an extreme animosity towards everything the Ynnari stood for right? So we can safely make the assumption that Rules as Intended (RAI) GW does not want us to run Coven with Ynnari. Not in a detachment, not in an army.

Sadly, any assumptions we make about RAI is at the end of the day just an assumption and we must play with how the rules are actually written. I believe that the rules clearly stated that the units chosen to join the Ynnari detachment GAIN the ynnead key word and that it DOES NOT REPLACE the Aeldari key word. Thus going by the rules as written, as long as the army shares a keyword they are battle forged.

Follow up question though, do the Ynnari have the Aeldari key word?

P.s. @Endstation I see you are a newer member of the community. I welcome thee, fellow archon, to our humble abode, I apologize for the mess.

Nowhere is said they lose the Aeldari keyword, so yes, they are still Aeldari too. However, the Army of the Reborn states that every model gains Ynnari faction if it was chosen into it, thus preventing us from making non-ynnari detachments or picking covens, as the rule is army-wide, not detachment specific.

Quote :
The suggestion that any disagreement from what you purport a rule to be is inherently rules lawyering or trolling is unacceptable anti-intellectualism and should not be tolerated.

It seemed to me like it, I have a lot of respect for good community members like Count, so it looked kinda suspicious that someone with so much experience and contribution would muddy the waters, but it boiled down to a simple misunderstanding and if the Count felt insulted, it was not my intention in the slightest. So calm down, drop your weapon, there is no war to be waged here.

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