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Endstation
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PostSubject: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 09:20

Hey,

Can I play a separate Detachment with some coven units in an army, that also includes Ynnari / Aeldari-Units in another Detachment?

Example:
1st Detachment: Yvraine and 3 Units of Kabalytes. The Kabalytes should get Strength from Death and the Ynnari-Keyword and loose Power from pain.
2nd Detachment: Haem + 3 Talos. They should keep power from pain.

In our gaming group is some discussion on this point but no real answer. Maybe it is because of the german Translation of the part of the Index Xenos rules to the reborn warhost, that refers to a "Ynnari-Army". I have seen a Reddit-post asking the same question but the discussion drifted away to including grey knights in Imp.
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 09:47

Yes, you can.

The only limit as to what can be in the same Battle-Forged army, or even in the same Detachment, is that they share a Faction keyword.
So as long as they're all Aeldari, you can put whatever you want in the same Army or even same Detachment. You COULD take a Coven army led by the three Ynnari characters, because they're all still Aeldari.
THey would only count as an Aeldari army, and the Coven would not get the Ynnari special rules, but you can do it.
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Endstation
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 10:30

But the "other" non-coven units (Kabalites for example) get Ynnari Keyword and Strength from Death? I ask specifically because of the wording at the reborn warhost rule.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 10:43

Whilst that wording is somewhat confusing, the only restrictions on army building for battle-forged armies are that all units must be in detachments and, other than UNALIGNED units, must have at least one faction keyword in common (in this case, Aeldari). Within those detachments you can mix and match as you choose as long as you follow the above rules.

So you could, if you wish, have Ynnari units in the same detachment as non-Ynnari units.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 10:58

Army of the Reborn – With the exception of <haemonculus coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine, any Aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does do gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them:…

To me - this says no, you cant have coven (or the other units mentioned) in a force of ynnari regardless of detachment - it refers to Army, not detachment

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 11:21

As I read that, it says that any Aeldari can be Ynnari instead of Asuryani/Drukhari/Harlequin. Ynnari are still Aeldari, and you can have Ynnari and non-Yannri in the same Aeldari army.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 11:24

@Massaen wrote:
Army of the Reborn – With the exception of <haemonculus coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine, any Aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does do gains the Ynnari keyword. These cannot use any of the following abilities, and are not considered to have them:…

To me - this says no, you cant have coven (or the other units mentioned) in a force of ynnari regardless of detachment - it refers to Army, not detachment

But what is an Ynnari army? Is it an army made up entirely of Ynnari models? An army containing one or more Ynnari models?

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 11:30

So make an ealdary army with ynnari units?
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 11:31

That's the issue Count.

It says any aeldari unit can be part of the Ynnari army except these ones...

To me - this means that as soon as you have Ynnari as a keyword, the army becomes ynnari which would prohibit coven and so on. This makes sense based on the fluff

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 11:40

Until such time as they actually define what an Ynnari army is though, we only have the rules for building battle-forged armies, which do not prohibit this at all.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 14:11

If you have haemonculus coven unit, your army isn't Ynnari. Your army is "Aeldari". What is Ynnari is your DETACHMENT. You can do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 15:56

But even your detachment could be aeldari right?
Just individual units should be ynnari?
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:17

That's my interpretation of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:51

@|Meavar wrote:
But even your detachment could be aeldari right?
Just individual units should be ynnari?

Your detachments will be "Aeldari", "Ynnari". As a coven unit in our army will be "Aeldari", "drukhari", "coven haemonculi".
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 04:09

Ynnari doesn't care about detachments - read the rule - it says ARMY.

There is no reason to use this language instead of detachment unless it meant something. RAW, yep - you can mix and match in the same detachment because they share other key words - but unless you are using the Ynnari key word as the unifer for your army - you don't become Ynnari because its an aeldari army (or drukhari or coven or whatever)... at least that's my reading

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 09:44

@Massaen wrote:
Army of the Reborn – With the exception of <haemonculus coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine, any Aeldari unit can be part of an Ynnari army. Any unit that does do gains the Ynnari keyword.

Dunno what the discussion is all about, the wording is pretty clear - <haemonculus coven> units, Urien Rakarth, Drazhar, Mandrakes and the Avatar of Khaine can't be parts of Ynnari army, so you can't pick them. Specific rules overrite the basic rules, thus making whatever is written in the main books moot. You can't even pick them up as a support detachement, they can't be the part of the ARMY, not only the detachment, as the rulebook clearly states that an army can have several detachments that are a part of a whole.

You can still take, for example, Yvraine or the Avatar in any Aeldari army, they just won't benefit from Ynnari keywords, except these two models.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 09:49

Exactly - To have Ynnari - you need to use that as the armies Key Word - which means no Coven

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 09:56

It still goes back to what I was saying earlier though, what is an Ynnari army? It's simply not defined. If we go with the strictest interpretation, that an army is Ynnari if it has even a single Ynnari unit in it, then we have the weird situation that the faction whose entire shtick is that they are some sort of gestalt Aeldari mega-faction that can take units from Drukhari, Asuryani and Harlequin factions actually has fewer choices than a non-Ynnari army!

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:21

@Count Adhemar wrote:
It still goes back to what I was saying earlier though, what is an Ynnari army? It's simply not defined. If we go with the strictest interpretation, that an army is Ynnari if it has even a single Ynnari unit in it, then we have the weird situation that the faction whose entire shtick is that they are some sort of gestalt Aeldari mega-faction that can take units from Drukhari, Asuryani and Harlequin factions actually has fewer choices than a non-Ynnari army!

Read Army of the Reborn rule. It's clear as a day.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:36

On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:38

@Massaen wrote:
On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

You don't select a keyword at all though. Your units must simply all share a keyword, which they do.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 10:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

You don't select a keyword at all though. Your units must simply all share a keyword, which they do.

BRB doesn't matter. Specific rules say you can't take Coven units etc. so that's that. If you take Army of the Reborn, you are playing Ynnari, as any unit eligible to be taken gets the Ynnari Keyword. If you are playing DE with Yvraine or CE with Viscarch, you are playing Aledari. Seriously, you are trying to prove that the spoon is a fork atm.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 11:04

Rereading it I think you are right.
All your Ealdari units must become Ynnari, you have no choice.
RAW you cannot take a detechment of non ynnari since they instantly become ynnari, then the complete block on coven etc while annoying also makes sense.
So all Eldar play nice together except the Ynnari who will not work together with anyone anymore. XD
(except their leaders who can still be included in a non Ynnari eldar army, because they start with all the ynnari rules so do not have to be pronounced ynnari army to get them)
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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 11:32

@mightydoughnut wrote:
@Count Adhemar wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
On page 214 of the BRB you select your army faction - not detachment.

Ynnari ARMY means the keyword that links the units is Ynnari

You don't select a keyword at all though. Your units must simply all share a keyword, which they do.

BRB doesn't matter. Specific rules say you can't take Coven units etc. so that's that. If you take Army of the Reborn, you are playing Ynnari, as any unit eligible to be taken gets the Ynnari Keyword. If you are playing DE with Yvraine or CE with Viscarch, you are playing Aledari. Seriously, you are trying to prove that the spoon is a fork atm.

If you're just going to ignore the question of what constitutes an Ynnari army then yes, it's pretty simple. I prefer to consider all the elements of an issue rather than just picking the bits I want.

It may well be that you are right but unless we get an explanation of what an Ynnari army actually is we cannot tell either way, so please don't tell me it's clear as day when it manifestly isn't.

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PostSubject: Re: Coven Units in a Ynnari-Army   Thu Jun 22 2017, 11:54

@count
The problem is that they only become ynnari if they are part of the ynnari army, and then everything becomes ynnari. You can not get the power from death on regular units otherwise.
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