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 I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 18:59

Local club is playing an 8th League. All lists are the same throughout. Eternal War missions only and 750 points. I basically can't see how I'm going to win many if any of the games.

My list:

Archon with Blaster, Agoniser and PGL

5 Kabs with a Blaster and PGL

Venom with 2 Cannons. I'll drop a Kab to allow the Archon to ride.

5 Dark Lance Scourges

2 Dissie Ravagers
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 18:59

First opponent:

HQ Company Commader Shotgun
Chainsword
Frag Grenades

Company Commader Sniper Rifle
Chainsword
Frag Grenades

Elites Commissar Plasma Pistol
Power Sword

Commissar Plasma Pistol
Chainsword

Troops Infantry Squad Plasmagun
Lascannon
Frag Grenades
Sergeant Laspistol Chainsword


Infantry Squad Plasmagun
Lascannon
Frag Grenades
Sergeant Laspistol Chainsword


Conscripts x 40 Lasgun
Frag Grenade

Fast Attack Hellhound Inferno Cannon
Heavy Flamer

Banewolf Chemcannon
Heavy Flamer

Heavy Support Heavy Weapons Squad 3x Heavy Bolter

Basilisk Earthshaker Cannon
Heavy Bolter
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 19:00

So that's 3 Heavy tanks and 69(?) Infantry models. Even if I hit and wounded with every shot, every turn and didn't die, I still can't kill that many models. Lol.
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Hen Tai, the tentacle guy
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 19:23

Try switching one ravager with a dl razorwing and either equip scourges with anti infantry or change them for another squad in venom.

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 20:17

The thing you're missing is that they're guard.
Numbers like these are their strength.
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 21:10

If you know u can't table him then u have to use your speed and tactics . Try to secure first blood taking out an easy sqaud then use veichals late on for line breaker. Then take objectives if u can if not contest them were u can. Not every game is won by tableting your opponent
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 21:46

Basically you're going to have to try and play keep away. You're absolutely right you're not going to kill that many models. Get the idea out of your head because it's irrelevant to your game plan.

What you can beat him on his mobility however. Play keep away from the conscript squads as long as you can. Incubi are probably going to have to hit one of the small troop squads, but don't be afraid to hold back for an opportune moment. Either the heavy weapons team or whatever is on a backfield objective. You want to give him as little time to reposition for his objectives as possible, so this where your strength from mobility will come in. So draw the blob out of position as best you can. Dissie Ravagers should either be hitting the smaller squads as early as possible to whittle them down or tanks early. Scourges have a pretty obvious goal considering how you've kitted them. If he sits back he's doing your job for you in a way, because unless all the objectives are on his side he has to move out.

It's not going to be easy that's guaranteed. You have a list geared towards hurting TEQ/ MEQ. This is going to be difficult. But I feel a draw is at least fairly realistic or a small loss.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Mon Jun 19 2017, 23:29

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 04:50

At least he isnt playing Tempest, i think they are for sure the most OP army under 1k points.

5man Squad with DSing with Heavy 4, S4 -2ap for 90pts a squad. (you can also just take 4 Special weapons, Plasma/Melta/Flamers, its not uncommon to take 6 of these units 2 with Meltas 2 with the Heavy 4 and 2 Flamer), they get an Orders too, they add 1 Prime to the multi dropping units and he can give 2 orders, Re-roll 1, make guns Rapid fire etc....


Scout Sentiels that scout 9", move 9" and has a 8" HF, starting up 12" (Dawn of War deployment lets say) thats a 38" threat turn 1 from a stupidly cheap unit (50pts).

And then there is the Taurox Prime at like 90pts? it gets a Heavy 20 bolter gun and 2 Heavy 4, S4 -2ap


A 750 point list would look something like
Vanguard Detachment: 746pts

Tempest Prime 41pts
Tempest Prime 41pts
Tempest Command Squad: Plasma x4, 73pts
Tempest Command Squad: Plasma x4, 73pts
Tempest Command Squad: Plasma x4, 73pts
Tempest Command Squad: Plasma x4, 73pts
Tempest Command Squad: Hot-shot Volley gun, 90pts
Tempest Command Squad: Hot-shot Volley gun, 90pts
Taurox Prime: Taurox Gatling, x2 Hot-shot Volley gun, 96pts
Taurox Prime: Taurox Gatling, x2 Hot-shot Volley gun, 96pts

its only 34 models, but if you play it correctly at this low level points you could table someone turn 1. Re-roll 1's on Rapid fire DSing Plasma guys, S4 -2 ap spam and mass bolter spam is strong enough for sure.

Can only DS 5, so you can Pick and choose what ones you want, which is nice.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 09:18

Don't you think that a Scourge unit with 5 Dark Lances and 2 Ravagers is a bit OTT for a 750pts list? Even against 3 tanks.

You are playing guard which means 4+ to hit. I would be tempted to swap the Ravagers for Razorwing Jetfighter. They are -1 to hit meaning a Guard army will start to struggle. They also have a mix of anti-tank and anti-infantry.

I would drop the scourges because they could be wiped out easy by all those lasguns.

Venoms are also -1 to hit so again guard will start to struggle against them. Another gun boat might help thin down the infantry.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 09:24

This is a league. I can't change lists, it has to be an all comer. You say it's a bit "ott", but I still can't kill 3 tanks. So I actually don't have enough AT as it is. I also don't have enough AI. So I'm frak either way.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 10:21

At 750 points having 2 Ravagers is too much and for me Scourges are too squishy to give 5 Dark Lances to...even more so when they make up 50% of your infantry.

If you really want to take two tanks and you want the best of both then take 2 Razorwing Jetfighters.  Give them x2 Dark Lances each and use the missiles for messing up the infantry.

You need close combat units as well.  You can tie up tanks by charging them...they will fall back and then can't shoot.  Venoms are perfect for this...they won't die in close combat with a tank and they can fall back and still shoot.  A small unit of Wyches can potentially tie up a tank and render it useless.  If you can't kill a threat on turn 1 the next best thing is to stop it being a threat another way.

5 Blaster Born on a Venom might be better than 5 Dark Lance Scourge...maybe.
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:16

Witches can only tie up infantry but otherwise the advice is solid.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:27

You know what I almost didn't believe all that would fit into a 750pt list but it does...its a little over by my calculation but not far off. I think he is around 20 points over.

Wow so that's 60 infantry 3 tanks and a heavy weapons team along with some HQ for 750 points...impressive.

The more I think about it though it feels like this list can be beat...

Try and stay out of range of the hellhounds and pick them off at distance. Pick a Venom loaded with anti-infantry weapons to deal with his infantry...conscripts will need 6s to hit the venom just don't let him charge you.

The basilisk is only T6 so heat lances at short distance might bust that easy.

I might take a list like this....

Archon
9 Kabs with Dark Lance
Raider with Dark Lance

5 Trueborn x2 Splinter Cannon
Venon x2 Splinter Cannon

6 Scourges x2 Heat Lance

Razorwing Jetfighter x2 Dark Lances

You would have 4 Dark Lances and 2 Heat Lances...for anti-tank.

The Heat Lances are assault so you can actually move and fire without the penalty for firing heavy Dark Lances and if need be you actually advance as well and fire them making the Scourge very mobile. I added an additional Scourge for extra survivability.

The venom trueborn unit put out 30 splinter shots in rapid fire range which will hurt his infantry. The Kab squad will add to this. Drop the Archon out and have him jump into his command squad.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:29

@CptMetal wrote:
Witches can only tie up infantry but otherwise the advice is solid.

If wyches or any unit for that matter charge a tank then it will have to fall back the next round or stay in combat...either way it isn't shooting you.

The reason Wyches would be decent is that they have a 4++ save in combat and a tank doesn't have a high number of attacks back.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:43

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
9 Kabs with Dark Lance

You can only take a DL if the unit numbers 10 or more models.

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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:46

Sorry that was my attempt at getting a ride for the Archon...I guess you could change it to a blaster instead?
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:53

Yeah, blaster is fine.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 17:17

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:


You would have 4 Dark Lances and 2 Heat Lances...for anti-tank.

I'm not sure why you think 4 DL and 2 HL would work, when I took 4 DL and 18 Dissies and it wasn't enough.

Also, as previously mentioned, this list has to stay for another 6 games. Tailoring is one thing I can't do. What I'm really saying is I don't know what I'm doing wrong with my list builds in 8th.
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 20:33

HWB isnt good AT... sry its not a DL is always better, heck a blaster is better most the time b.c you can wound on 3+ to many tanks.

At low point games I dont think you need Dis Cannons, i would just take 6-7 DL's and 2-3 Blasters if you can fit it.

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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Tue Jun 20 2017, 22:09

I agree that the 2 dissie ravagers and DL scourges are too expensive for this low points level.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Wed Jun 21 2017, 12:33

@Hellstrom wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:


You would have 4 Dark Lances and 2 Heat Lances...for anti-tank.

I'm not sure why you think 4 DL and 2 HL would work, when I took 4 DL and 18 Dissies and it wasn't enough.

Also, as previously mentioned, this list has to stay for another 6 games.  Tailoring is one thing I can't do.  What I'm really saying is I don't know what I'm doing wrong with my list builds in 8th.

I'm not sure why you need 18 dissies...

I wish you luck in finding a solution. Like I said I don't think its that hard to build an all rounder competitive list with DE at 750 points but if you are insisting on taking 2 Ravagers and putting heavy weapons on Scourge then that's up to you but I think your initial list was very poor.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Wed Jun 21 2017, 13:39

18 dissies are statistically much better at killing vehicles than 4 DL and 2 HL. That's why they are in there. Also, if I play against a Marine list without vehicles, which is likely in this edition, I need a ton of AP shots. Nothing better than dissies.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Wed Jun 21 2017, 14:43

Well you are screwed then ain't ya mate...at 750 points you can't build a DE army that on one hand can take out loads of tanks and on the other hand can take out loads of armoured infantry.  If there was an army out there that could do that at 750 points then we would know about it.

You either want a competitive list or you want to kill tanks or you want to kill loads of Marines and I'm sorry but you can't do it all in low point games without being able to change your army list.

There is a lot of variety in the strengths of the DE units...you need to be able to pick the right units for the right tasks. In low point games where you have already whacked in 2 Ravagers you leave yourself no wiggle room.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: I'm missing something. Enlighten me please.   Wed Jun 21 2017, 15:15

That's kind of what I was asking in the OP. Do you think we can at high points levels? Take out an entire tank list and an entire horde list with just one of our lists?
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