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 Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?

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WildCandy
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PostSubject: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Mon Jun 19 2017, 13:06

Dear Beastial Archons and Succubi alike,

I am planning to make an addition to my Dark Eldar family and I am battling my self between Bomber and Jetfighter. How do they compare in 8ed?
Damage and threath per point?
Survivability?
Consistency?

Voidraven is about 50% premium over jetfighter, but can dish out mortal wounds.
I am looking something to complement also my eldar (hemlock and Crimson hunter + CH exarch) for competitive environment.

If you have experiences already please share, all opinions are also welcome!


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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Mon Jun 19 2017, 14:46

Well, to math it......

We'll take a simple "Wounds vs Unlimited Wounds Marine" system for damage output.

A Razorwing, throw down Two dissies, two Splinter rifles and Razorwing missiles. For simplicity we'll use Shatterfield Missiles, because Voidravens get them too.
Hitting 2/3 times, thats 4 hits per turn. At S5, thats 2/3 wounds, so 2.6. The modified save will stop 1/6 of them, so 2.2. Double for 2 damage each, thats 4.4.
Rifles will get 3.5 hits per turn, half wounding, so 1.75. Save will cover 2/3 of that though, so 0.6.
The Shatterfield will get an average of 3 shoots, 2 hitting, 1.3 wounds. But rerolls make that 1.4.

So the Razorwing comes in with 6.4 unsaved wounds against the Unlimited Wounds Marine.


The Voidraven is throwing out two Void Lances, Missiles and a Void Mine.
The Missiles we have already at 1.4.
The two Void Lances are one shot each, 1.3 of them hitting. 1.1 will wounds, but no save. An average of 3 damage per wounds, gives us 3.3.
Finally the Void Mine, assuming some incredible situation where you can Mine and fire at the same massive Marine. Seeing as its three D6 for each monster of vehicle of one D6 per model, we'll take 5 as a rough average of the maximum ten dice. 2/3 hit, so 3.3 Mortal Wounds.

Thats to a nice rounded 8.0 wounds taken from the Unlimited Wounds Marine.


To put that in a weird way, the Razorwing is doing 0.0366 wounds per point.
The Voidraven is doing 0.0412 wounds per point..
__________________________________________________________________________

As a final note of survivability, they are exactly the same except that the Voidraven has two additional wounds. That really is all that question comes down to. BUT that does come with a slightly higher threshold for stats degrading which can be worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Mon Jun 19 2017, 23:19

keep in mind that against the unlimited wounds marine, neurotoxin or monosythe might kill more and affect the razorwings w/pt value. also keep in mind that I THINK that the void raven can take other missiles, and you may face more types of opponents so this is a VERY ROUGH approximation which really tells us nothing about the unit.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 01:42

@Squidmaster wrote:

Finally the Void Mine, assuming some incredible situation where you can Mine and fire at the same massive Marine. Seeing as its three D6 for each monster of vehicle of one D6 per model, we'll take 5 as a rough average of the maximum ten dice. 2/3 hit, so 3.3 Mortal Wounds.

Not so incredible given that you now have a 360 arc of fire, so you just need to fly over it pretty much.

The mine is excellent but being 1 use only it will really make a difference when you face the right target, say a big 10+ squad made of expensive models with very good saves (harlequins, SM vanguard/vets, bikes and termies even if it halves the dead count etc).
The +1 S on lances will make a difference against the really big stuff but probably not enough in the whole economy of the game, 3+ over 4+ is definitely nice to have though.
The only factor that evens up the choice is that during a few turns and taking into account a competitive environment (so no tailored lists) the missiles on the Razorwing offer more flexibility, they share the shatterfield but the voidraven has implosion ones that are pretty underwhelming due to the d3, while the razorwing can choose either a flat assault 6 that wounds on 2+ or a d6 that causes 2 wounds, both can be great against the proper target, on top of that there's always the splinter cannon to plink away a few shots as well.
If you are short on points go Razorwing, if you want to complement your Eldar flyers go Voidraven simply because it does something your other flyers can't do.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:56

I have not use the bomber, but I have to say I love the fighters. Took 2 of them and they were always a threat and always had something to shoot at. They won me my game.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 03:32

What is the math on the dark sytche if you don't mind as I'm fairly certain they are the better weapon option.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 03:39

From another earlier thread

@Faitherun wrote:
Ok... really looking now at the comparison of the Void Lances to the Dark Scythes

Scythe is -12" (as if that matters on this beast?), -1 str, and same AP Mod. Its d3 hits vs 1 and does d3 wounds vs d6

Str wise I don't see there is any difference. VS MEQ both wound on a 2+. Up till T 8, both are wounding on a 3+....

So at T 8 and 9 the Lance is slightly better at wounding but from T 10 to 15 they are the same again...

Now, looking through what I have, I don't see anything above T 10... Knights are T 8. Most things seem to fall in the 3 - 8 range.

So, what we are really looking at is 2d3 hits with 2d3 wounds vs 2 hits at d6 wounds... Oh an points wise, they are the exact same.

Mathhammering it out a bit... I get 9.34 kills on the Scythe vs MEQ and 3.97 on the lance

I do believe the Scythe may be the way to go!

Maths and such:
 

Please feel free to let me know where my math is wrong Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 04:36

Dark scythes sound very tempting Smile nice breakdowns. It is early in the edition so practical experience is limited but the available seem to be pro both!
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 04:50

I want to get a voidraven and run a flyer wing.

525 pts for 2 razorwings and a raven - oh and it nets me another CP.. I am good with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 04:59

I intend to do the same.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Mon Jul 03 2017, 10:59

I got good deal on used void bomber, it has void lances, thus I am in need of dark scythes. If someone happens to have extra or unused bits please do offer. Looking forward to fielding it.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Mon Jul 03 2017, 13:14

I've been running an air wing detachment with two razorwings and a voidraven for a few games now. Both flyers always do really well but, since I always try to use the voidraven's void mine as quickly as possible, it pretty much always has to deal with this terrified, super violent knee-jerk reaction from my opponent on the turn after it immediately vaporizes 7-8 MEQ. I'm not sure why it seems to happen every time but, despite me frequently stating it can only do that once per game my opponent aims the vast majority of their next shooting phase right at the poor thing.

Overall I really like the voidraven but with the current meta being so horde-heavy the razorwing seems better equipped to deal with it. At least that's been my experience.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jul 04 2017, 00:25

I think it depends heavily on the meta. My meta is not so horde heavy and it's mostly mechanized air, knight-ish threats like IK/Magnus/Shadowswords.

Razorwings should be treated like extra Ravagers that are more difficult to kill at the expense of less firepower and weirder maneuvering.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jul 04 2017, 02:54






I actually got to try out my old Blackheart Talon formation with the new 8th ed rules (2 voidravens and 2 razorwing jetfighters), and I was really impressed.

For the price of a trip DL ravager, you can field a Razorwing with DL's, twin splinter rifles, and missiles, making it a very tempting choice.

For my match I played 2,000 points of my Kabal against a 2,000 pt renegade knight army. The shatterfield missiles were great on both platforms and with their ability to re-roll to wound, I felt like they were the best choice against what I was fighting. Meanwhile the voidmine was a pretty nice, with both voidravens dropping on the same target and reducing it by a few wounds. The real place I see the voidmine becoming amazing is against expensive troops with good invuln saves, such as 10 man squads of terminators with those pesky stormshields, or similar targets. Meanwhile the voidlances felt a little nice and powerful, but not all that special when compared to our easy access of Dark Lances.

The big issue I came across with our flyers was their maneuverability. Initially I flew them in at an angle, from the corner of the board, which made trying to spin them around a little difficult. The fact we can still only make a 90 degree turn and move a minimum of 20", means we have to seriously plan out our attack runs or keep our flyers fairly aligned with the board for maximum effect. In the game I played, I wound up only being able to fire off missiles during one turn, due to nearly being forced to fly off the board.


Overall I'm really impressed with our flyers, and think they'll be a pivotal component in my future list building.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jul 04 2017, 07:00

As flyers are present in every army of mine, I have to say they are awesome. I use them to prevent the T1 ground charges, prevent charging from advancing melee army so my melee elements can get an assault and as an anti-tank force primarily. TBH I am veering away from Ravagers altogether.

As for which is better, the answer is simple - none. That said I'd first build the rest of your army and look what it lacks. AI? Take RWJ with Dissies. AT? Take Voidraven with Voidlances. Anti-Elite? Take either (bomb + scythes or dissies).

As for Scythes vs Void Lances on Voidraven - After trying both, I use Void Lances. Reason? Range. Its far easier to maneuver the plane with 36'' range.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jul 04 2017, 07:04

You want to fly your flyers in a zig-zag formation. With Eldar flyers however, you can pretty much freestyle because of Wings of Khaine being amazing.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jul 04 2017, 08:11

Oh and a point for Voidraven - you know you can bomb enemy units in melee right? Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Tue Jul 04 2017, 10:53

I have 5 Fliers, 1 Bomber, 1 Hemlock and 3 Razorwings.

I've tried the Razorwings and my Bomber many times, for me tho the Ravager just does its job better than Razorwing. If the meta shifts more to infantry (and its looking like it is) then i will for sure want Razorwings over Ravagers.

But the Voidbomber being elite Infantry killer supreme, can AT and still AI a bit, i really love it.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:03

It might be very niche, but seeing how T'au Drone Wound Allocation works, the Razorwing has a big advantage over the Voidraven : access to less important shooting attacks.
When you shoot a dark lance against a hammerhead, if it wounds, a nearby drone can take a whole wound (and not a dmg, like the bodyguards usually can), which renders the 1d6 dmg pointless. If you shoot with the SplinterCannon on drones, you can hope to kill them and keep the monoscythe/shatterfield and lances for the hammerhead. With a Voidraven, you either would have to use missiles against the drones, or use a second unit (venom) just to get rid of that 2 drones.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:16

You can shoot the D6 missile at it too tho.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Thu Jul 06 2017, 12:23

@amishprn86 wrote:
You can shoot the D6 missile at it too tho.
Indeed. But in my eyes that is still somewhat valuable shooting that i'd rather not be using on the tinfoil pancakes.
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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Thu Jul 06 2017, 15:27

@Arani you know that there are no facings anymore? So your flyer can basically shoot backwards too. No need to worry because of some flying angle.

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Thu Jul 06 2017, 15:48

@Mppqlmd wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
You can shoot the D6 missile at it too tho.
Indeed. But in my eyes that is still somewhat valuable shooting that i'd rather not be using on the tinfoil pancakes.

Like you said, just have a venom shoot them off 1st tongue

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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Thu Jul 06 2017, 20:10

Bombing a unit engaged in melee just makes me giggle.


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PostSubject: Re: Voidraven bomber vs Razorwing jetfighter (or two) in 8ed, which is new blacker Black?   Fri Jul 07 2017, 23:36

Pretty sure bombing a unit in melee will get FAQ'd out soon enough.

I find the VoidRaven is just a bit better than the razorwing, but currently I'm running both

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