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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 23:12

Good idea!!!

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:22

Before anyone complains about what I'm about to say...

@Gildaheir wrote:
What don't you like about 8th?  I'm honestly curious.

...he asked.

Without going into Mr. Plnkett levels of detail, vehicles have toughness values rather than AV, removing the verisimilitude of having an armored glacias and replacing it with random models that happen to look like tanks. So too are firing arcs, because of course a lascannon sponson can fire through your own hull. And gone too are the intricacies of flyers, which are basically now just regular models. The psychic phase is boring. Toughness and strength are meaningless. Everything can hurt everything which means my S2 Razorwing Flocks are equally deadly against a Knight Titan as they are against a Space Marine. Characters joining units is gone, but buffs they give still stack and you can't pick them out if there's infantry nearby, which was THE ENTIRE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. Tank can charge and swing in close combat instead of having Tank Shock and Ram, which were cool to me.

Also all the books are now dead weight. My favorite one, Death from the Skies, was replaced with 4 pages of BS. Fighter Aces, wing leaders, flight patterns, formations for flyers, reserve manipulation, different types of flyers for different roles, all gone. Sure, I can still tag my Ace with the transfers of all the flyers he's killed, but what's the point? He doesn't get anything from it anymore. He's not even my ace anymore, he's just a random flyer now with a bunch of weird transfers all over his plane. Why give him a name? He's not special anymore. Who cares if I bought him *explicitly* so I could level him up Shadow War style? Who cares if he had 3 buffs after killing 15 Dakka Jets? Who cares if there was an entire narrative based around his flight missions? That's all gone, it's over. What's replaced it? Roll to come on the board and a watered down dogfight phase. Thank god for simplification.

And all my favorite fluff was replaced with the garbage fire that is the Gathering Storm books. Who cares if I spent years forging the narrative for over a dozen characters I've named? Someone in the GW writing department hit the paint thinner a little too hard while stripping his models and now we have entirely new lore! I gotta rewrite all of it to fit the new (and ever-changing so I'll have to do it again) lore while completely disregarding all the stuff I already had. Either that or ignore it wholesale and have my army be completely irrelevant in any future releases!

Oh and the Allies matrix is gone so I can't bring my enslaved Sisters of Battle along with my Dark Eldar anymore because *reasons*.

There are somethings I DO like. Movement stats, being able to fire heavy weapons while moving, the changes to transports, more granular points, etc. But these are mostly technical and could have been incorporated without destroying the entire backlog of books in the process. Also these I think are where the real meat and potatoes of 8th edition "being better" really lie. Those things would fix the most glaring issues of 7th edition, along with a long list of errata.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:41

You cans till bring SOB with DE tho albino

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:45

Not anymore, they FAQ'd the Wu Tang Clan rule.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:52

But hte Faction rules on pg 240 only stats that a Detachment must be the same factions, not an army.

So i was reading it as, you take 2 detachments 1 can be Adeptus Ministorum the other can be Aeldari.

Edit: I read the faq the other night 3-4 times and i only remembering it saying you cant name yours <Grey knights> so you can gain Grey knights buffs lol. Or something similar to that extreme.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:59

@amishprn86 wrote:
But hte Faction rules on pg 240 only stats that a Detachment must be the same factions, not an army.

So i was reading it as, you take 2 detachments 1 can be Adeptus Ministorum the other can be Aeldari.

Edit: I read the faq the other night 3-4 times and i only remembering it saying you cant name yours <Grey knights> so you can gain Grey knights buffs lol. Or something similar to that extreme.

Yup. Spot on. Just can't buff each other - which they never could in the first place
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 03:11

In matched play they have to all share a keyword. You can't bring *any* mixed factions that don't. So no Eldar and Imperium.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 03:19

Where is that rule?

Pg 172/173 doesnt say and just say to use Battle-forge Armies rules on pg 240-242 (the rules i was staying).

I could have over looked it, but i just re-read them and i dont see anything that says you have to take 1 faction per army.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 03:21

It's under the matched play rules. I don't have the book in front of me but I know it's in there.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 03:36

That is true for matched play (pg 214) - although I was under the impression you were not a huge fan of matched play...

In any case, that is indeed the case, although I am quite sure that outside of tournaments most people would not have an issue with you running that army, especially if you had a fluff justification and models to suit
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 04:15

Matched play is what tournaments use. I play in tournaments a lot, thus that's what I have to use in them. No sisters of battle.

Also I generally prefer not relying on "most people" being okay with me explicitly breaking the rules of the game to play the game the way I like because if there's ever a WAAC or "that guy" move, it's asking the rules to be bent in your favor.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 04:20

Yes on pg 214 for match play you do have to.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 05:27

I hate the way units are activated in melee. It doesn't make any narrative sense, and it punishes good tactics - if I charge a small portion of your army with a large portion of mine, you can spend some command points to negate my advantage.

I hate the potential for mass turn 1 charges. It will lead to people getting slaughtered before they get a turn, which will lead to people not wanting to play again because of how not fun the experience was. If the game I played had been my first game of 40k ever, I wouldn't come back for a second one. As it stands, i'm relieved that I'll get to play Shadow War next weekend, because I know I'll have fun.

I can't afford to buy more models right now. If I can't have fun with the new 40k with the models I currently own, I'm going to shelve it until the next edition. If the game's not fun, I'm not going to spend hundreds more dollars on it in the hope that will help.

There are things I love about 8th edition: save modifiers. The relationship between characters and units. No more USRs, and most of a model's rules in the same place. More importance placed on the statline.

I'm going to give it another shot and see what happens.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 06:04

The more im playing the more and more tactics are in melee im finding there are SOOOOO many things you can do b.c you are not "locked" to being in BTB anymore, you can move around models on your turn while in combat etc..

I like it MUCH more than only other editions melee rules.

here is a odd example

http://imgur.com/ADDJ7x1

There are 3 Scenarios in this 1 4 step pic, not all uses the 4 steps tho.

Scenario 1)
You are behind the Rhino, target the Rhino AND the unit behind, the unit behind cant fire due to LoS, you charge the rhino but if you can reach the unit behind you do so

Scenario 2)
You are charging only the Rhino (this works for all units). You stay outside of 1" of the unit but get close
Use the pile in to get closer to the unit
once you kill that Rhino now you consolidate into the other unit

Scenario 3) my favorite
Charge both units like before, but this time only try to kill the unit and not the Rhino
If all your units are close enough to the 5 man squad then you can "pile in" to the unit and not the rhino (not showned in pic) if you do this correctly the "next" round you no longer need to fight the rhino and still stay in range of the so it can not shoot or move forcing it to fall back.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 06:12

I do not like the new combat mechanics. They are boring and require way too much fiddling and way too much luck. I should not need 90 birds to bubble wrap an army.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 07:39

Quote :
I should not need 90 birds to bubble wrap an army.
Use Jetfighters. By current rules - enemies cannot assault them nor go through them. Couple of Jetfighters will block just fine, they are huge models.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 07:48

They can get shot down way too easily.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 07:50

Quote :
What don't you like about 8th? I'm honestly curious.

Advanced rules are a good idea, but realisation is way too shallow and empty. Like it was rushed and slapped together on a last minute. Its there because it was promised and marketed, and i think that was the goal. But people who did it dropped the ball. 1 page of rules for each section replacing all the previous mechanics is laughable. Its not deserving name "Advanced rules". More like, hey we got some slaughtered leftovers from Planetstrike, Cities of Death and DftS, here you are. And we will market it so you will have an impression thats its not 1 page of rules worthy of old White Dwarf Weekly section, but rather an interesting ruleset.

If there is a living rulebook i really hope they will expand on it. Point of the matter, many people like complexity and if we can chose to use or not use it, everyrone would be happy. Like in Shadow Wars armageddon, that was good implemetation of the idea. There definately needs to be advanced rules for vehicles, scenery, buildings, kill teams, reserves etc and expand upon core rules, not only thematic ways to play.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 09:45

For me it's hard to see anything other than massive positives from 8th because IMO 7th was utterly terrible.

And for what its worth for someone spending that much time working on fluff for his army, having SOB with DE just doesn't sit well with me. I have always been against using allies. I much prefer to see the true strengths of different factions going up against one another.

Like lets say Guard or Orks are going to be a difficult in 8th for DE...well I am excited to see if I can find the solution to those problems. Not by using units from other factions...but by using the units available to the DE. I look forward to those type of problems.

I know it isnt fun when people get whooped on turn one...who would enjoy that? But if I got beat down by an Ork army then for the next army I would want to fight would be Orks again.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 10:02

Hoping to get first couple of games in tomorrow. Doing 1000 points so we can get 2 games in. Using DE with a small CWE contingent (Illic and some Rangers for sniping characters). Looking forward to it!

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 12:43

@TeenageAngst wrote:
They can get shot down way too easily.

How many games have you played of 8th? Razorwing Jetfighters being "easily shot down" has not proven true whatsoever for me.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 14:28

The few games of 8th I played I really enjoyed.

Yes you lose out on some of the more advanced rules right now. While I can understand that this is a major drawback if you liked them, I think the streamlining of the game is one of the big bonus points for me.
Most of the arguments from Teenageangst seem to come down to fluff.
Allowing or not allowing allies, vehicles and living creatures not having a different name for their stats (thoughness) and attacks (tank shock). Losing interrest in named characters because their rules changed and they are not exactly the same anymore. Old stories having to adept to a changing universe, not changing the old stories mind you, just ad new lore in to show how you survived (or died) when something happened. I can understand this is a large blockade for you, I also hated it when it happened to me with a new version of D&D. In the end you have the option of adding lore showing how your personal guys handled the events, start over, or ignore it and stick to the old system.

Being a long time player or newby having vastly different options.
Your problem having a gazillion books being outdated shows the problem, I needed to buy around 6 books just for the rules you love and the rules for my army. You getting 3 buffs because you killed a crap of dakkajets? how is that fair to me not having even met a dakkajet let alone have had the option of killing them?) You can still play with the guy with his name and everything, he now just is not any better anymore (except by how you play with him) then the same priced dude I bring.

I also dislike they removed some of the tactical aspect related with front/side/firing arcs etc.
ALthough I am unsure what you mean with flyers, the only real difference I know is they are not invurnerable anymore to regular shooting and they lost their firing arcs, they still have the minimum movement and the slower turning problems from before. Of course they also lost the ability to fly of from one side and come back from another, which was stupid considering they could not even make a 180 turn on the board they could suddenly make a 360 when not visible anymore.... But there is a lot more missing probably if you take supplements into account (most people in my area disliked the flyer stuff saying it was badly balanced and convoluted, so I never bought the flyer book).
The psychic phase I cannot really tell much about since I only met 1 psyker and then it seemed fine to me, but less overpowering compared to before, since he could not keep spamming the same OP powers all the time with no chance to stop him.
Toughness and strength are meaningless. I completely disagree. Everything can hurt everything (YES) which means my S2 Razorwing Flocks are equally deadly against a Knight Titan as they are against a Space Marine (where in both cases they have to find a small hole to squize trough where there barely are any. Against other things, other gretchen, guardsmen, eldar etc they do have different values needed. Only in the cases where before you could not do anything or you had a really hard time is there no difference anymore. I actually find that s and t now matter more. Before all troops were wounded on a 2+ by heavy guns, now the thougher troops need a 3+.

Characters joining units is gone, but buffs they give still stack and you can't pick them out if there's infantry nearby, which was THE ENTIRE PROBLEM IN THE FIRST PLACE. I agree, but those buffs now are (as far as I have seen) vastly different. Now they make you slightly better in some way, but I have not seen any truly broken combinations. A large part of this is that the buffs do not stack with everyone, just with your own factions. Sure buffs are good, but they are far from the broblem they were before (at least from what I have seen).
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 15:03

I watched a Primaris Marine batrep and the Prim's were major buffed by re-roll ones to hit and re-roll to wound...at first I thought this isn't right it seems too OP. The Prim's were bunched together to keep in distance of the buffs and got easily surrounded. They were not as good in combat against dedicated CC units and barely had room to fall back. The Prim's lost the battle...which shows how well the game works.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 17:01

Quote :
Most of the arguments from Teenageangst seem to come down to fluff.
Allowing or not allowing allies, vehicles and living creatures not having a different name for their stats (thoughness) and attacks (tank shock). Losing interrest in named characters because their rules changed and they are not exactly the same anymore. Old stories having to adept to a changing universe, not changing the old stories mind you, just ad new lore in to show how you survived (or died) when something happened. I can understand this is a large blockade for you, I also hated it when it happened to me with a new version of D&D. In the end you have the option of adding lore showing how your personal guys handled the events, start over, or ignore it and stick to the old system.

Therein lies the problem. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting someone who wants to play 3.5 D&D, which is in a dead heat with 2nd edition for the best version. All the fluff of those two versions are sacrosanct and every iteration of D&D is basically final fantasy in that it's like an entirely different universe that's been reinterpreted for the new edition. 40k doesn't have that option. You have one long ambiguous line of fluff that you could pick apart as you choose and now suddenly it's one steamroll of a storyline that undoes everything the precious nearly 3 decades established.

And the simplified rules are boring. The game has the tactical depth of a spoon, just like AoS. I've played enough AoS to know how friggin pointless things can be. Turn 1 tables are a thing, stacking buffs make death stars look easy to beat, etc. That's why I've been pushing the 192 bird list so hard. I want GW to see what they have done. I want them to walk into the NOVA GT and see tables and tables of cheap 3rd party birds cleaning up game after game.

And everyone who hated DftS never played it. If I took the time to model and paint and write narrative and play with my wing leader to kill a ton of dakka jets, and he gets a 5+ invul save and a better BS, is that really so broken? Is that a gamechanger? Did it really need to be removed? I guess so, we can't have anything fun or complex in the game now.

As everyone in my gaming group has said, I'm not putting my 7th edition books away.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Tue Jun 20 2017, 17:47

Tactical depth of a spoon, but you're a fan of 7th?! Good lord.

Simplification of rules doesn't necessarily mean reduction of strategy. Chess has proven that concept. I'd say 8th is far more taxing since positioning is so important now in terms of screens and character placement. Order of activation is now relevant in melee. I came over from Warmachine and Hordes, a game that I would say is far more tactically rich, and I love that some of the hallmarks of that game are sneaking into 8th. 7th was so bogged down detachment, allies, and rules bloat. I won't miss it.

Have you actually played 8th yet?
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