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Calyptra
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PostSubject: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 02:36

A week or so ago I was able to get my hands on the 8 pages of core rules and our Index, so I was able to familiarize myself with the rules for launch day.

I turned up and played a pow 50 game against Orks. Turn 1 he deep struck 2 mobs of Kommandos around my army, teleported a large mob of Boyz over with his Weirdboy, surrounding me completely, and then charged me with all of them. Turn 2 I made a hole, pulled back through it, and counterattacked. He spent command points to prevent my charging units (after the first) from striking first, and they were wiped out.

(Note that command points are not in the core rules.)

This was when I realized that our blisteringly fast Raiders are not fast enough to get away from footslogging Orks.

The game went downhill from there, and in hindsight, I don't know what I could have done differently. It felt like I either had no options, or else that the ones I had didn't matter. I'm worried that 8th edition might be a game in which a player could potentially be tabled on turn 1 without ever getting a turn.

That said, this was only my first game of the new system, and just because I don't know how I could have handled it doesn't mean there wasn't a way.

Clearly this is a learning experience. I just don't know if I'm learning how to deal with being charged by 60 teleporting Orks on turn 1, or if I'm learning that I think this new game sucks.

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Creeping Darkness
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 02:54

Our blisteringly fast Raiders certainly suffer from not being able to boost 30" in a turn. Otherwise you could have rotated the table on him and turned him into a green pincushion.

I suspect that the new style of Deep Strike will be something we simply have to build in countermeasures for. Hellion bubblewrap perhaps? Since they can fall back and still fight at full effect they might be a useful way to soak the first turn assault. Sadly they are a bit pricier, but I guess you get what you pay for.

Better luck with game #2!
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 02:58

Do hellions make good bubble wrap tho?
Will they not get shredded by bolters or lasguns?
And they are pricier like you said.

I thought RWflocks would be our bubble wrap unit.

It does sound like castleing and wrapping would help in this case.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 03:38

What did you field?

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 03:41

Welcome to 8th edition. Bring 80 birds and bubblewrap hard.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 03:57

I had 2 units of Kabalites on Raiders, an Archon with Incubi bodyguard on a Raider, a Haemonculus, and Talos. It seemed sufficient for plonking down some models, learning the new system, and having fun.

I didn't have fun.

Looking at our options, I don't see a clear answer to telepOrks. Mandrakes seem like a good way to do unto others, but given that I didn't have fun, I don't want to put someone else through it. I also think it's problematic when the solution to a problem is "buy a different army."

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 06:02

This sounds like a battle where the winner is decided upon turn one and it may have been just a surprise win for the opponent. If you do play that match up again with the same armies, your goal should be to create the largest footprint you can in the middle of your deployment field. Raiders for this match would serve as a road bump, have them deployed on the outermost section of the bubble without troops inside. They will take the brunt of the charge and they will most likely die, but that's fine. Your troops will be in the middle of this bubble. Once the orks pop out and do their thing, your troop will swing hard in either direction and blast the closest unit, creating more of a distance between them and the horde. Surviving raiders will move in between the kabalites and orks and act as shields. I'd treat the talos as a secondary road bump that you keep with the troops and the incubi as a counter assault unit, committing to combat on turn 3 hopefully.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 06:53

You can't get away if you're moving with your Raider and when you're advancing? But their movement isn't that big. ..

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 07:14

Chalk it up to bad luck mate. If you play that Ork list again you know what to expect. Sounds a bit of a one trick pony, although granted that trick is brutal by the sounds of it. Presumably he rolled above the odds in getting all of his charges off on turn one, seeing as he'd need 9 or more to assault?
Don't give up based on one game either, it's a learning curve for everyone with the amount of changes to the rules. Looking further down the list of threads I can see one entitled "dark eldar are op" which is an account of someone else's first game that went incredibly well!
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Calyptra
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 08:02

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something about the new rules?

As I understand it, the Raider falls back 14" (assuming it still has 6 wounds), but cannot advance if it does so. The Orks are move 5, right? So they would need to roll a 9 to charge the Raider again, and they get a reroll.

Edit: yeah, he rolled lots of 9s. (Though I think if there had been a Warboss he could have advanced and charged?) And one game is a very small sample size. I just dislike that I haven't been able to come up with a plan for next time.

My Raiders were bunched up first because I was refusing a flank on turn 1, and then again because I focused on making a hole in the encircling Orks on turn 2. It felt a bit like I had showed up to play a wargame and then got clobbered by arbitrary board game rules mechanics - and then the enemy troops bravely manipulated the unit selection sequence. Just like at Waterloo, amiright?

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 09:27

Firstly it costs 2 cp to interrupt a charge attack sequence. And he can do it once per phase.
Irks are likely to be a challenge for us if we're not built for it as we might struggle with horde
With no info about what you took I can't offer much advice or consolation.
You could always do as angst keeps suggesting and stock up on birdseed.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 09:50

@Calyptra wrote:
My Raiders were bunched up first because I was refusing a flank on turn 1, and then again because I focused on making a hole in the encircling Orks on turn 2. It felt a bit like I had showed up to play a wargame and then got clobbered by arbitrary board game rules mechanics - and then the enemy troops bravely manipulated the unit selection sequence. Just like at Waterloo, amiright?

Aye, 'tis well known that when called upon to surrender, the French Imperial Guard instead shouted "Merde!", but less well known that they were actually objecting to the cheesiness of the English list.

I think you're right that you can't fall back and advance in the same turn. And since the troops on board can't shoot either, you're not in a happy place if an Ork ambush goes down like that. A salutary lesson to us all, to be aware of Orks in trees who roll 9s like it ain't no thing.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 10:00

It will take a couple games to get acclimated for sure.

Keep some counter charge units and some bubble wrapping for sure.

I'm doing Birds, and Wracks Very Happy

PS: Fliers are good now, i know a lot of players taking 3 Fliers over Ravagers, they can Fallback and still shoot and only fly units can attack them.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 10:56

So Fall back and annihilate the ork squads with the flyers. And don't forget to charge some spare venom into the remaining squads. Just to stall him.

If he falls back his turn is wasted. If you fall back next turn you can shoot him again. But just don't die the turn you charge!

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 12:21

Jeah, Take the charge of those orks hurts. But my (very limited) experience with orks in 8th is they are slow. Yes they charge far (5 move d6 advance reroll 2d6 charge) (still 3 made 9" charges in turn 1 is a lot). But if they cannot charge they go 5+d6, which means once they fail a charge we can usually just kite them around (I know I did after I killed the bikers and truck).

Also by keeping your units slightly further appart you can protect some units easier since he cannot "deepstrike" within 9. But here it comes into being that I think the rules were just playtested at around 2k points. A lot of stuff breaks down hard in smaller games. Like the teleport it works on one unit but you can only use a psykic power once per turn. At 2k the battlefield is a lot more clustered then if you only have around 4 units. If you had around 10 it would be only a small part of your army that got hit. Screen with small units, either 5 kabalites (or as people mention birds etc). Take some countercharge elements.
When vehicles are attacked just disembark and then fall back. Then you can shoot with everything (and charge if he is nearly dead) and he has to pick which unit to attack, sure it might die (after having shot). But now the other unit should be a healthy distance from the orks (1 move after disembarking, 1 move the second turn and 1 move of the orks into the other direction to get to the unit they wanted to destroy first).
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 15:40

I don't know how Orks do with the conversion of power points over normal points but there are some armies that seriously gain more from power points play.

I watched a Nid Cultist batrep and they made the point that there are some armies out there that end up a few hundred points more than others so there are defo armies out there that you should avoid using the power point mode of playing.

As for DE i have noticed that we fit into the average bracket where 50 power points is around about 1000 points. Most others are close to this...but beware the ones that would be coming in at around 1200 points for the same amount of power points.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 16:50

I disembarked off the back of my Raiders, had the Raiders fall back, shot with everything, and then charged with the disembarked units. Honestly, it worked pretty well, up until the not getting to strike first bit.

I'll need to think about this more and then try again. I think there were clear moments in that game where I could have made better choices; they don't seem like they'd have changed much, but maybe cumulatively it would have made a difference.

Yes, other people are having different experiences with the army and new edition. From what I've seen of their accounts, they didn't run into anything like the army I faced; I guess we'll see what happens when they do. When I play again, hopefully (win or lose) I'll actually have fun. We'll see.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 16:54

I wrapped my force with 4 flyers. Grey knights ported in but could not charge.
remember- they must be 9" away, so you have an 18" cushion to play with when wrapping

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 18:07

My experience of 8th edition that been players standing around, staring bewildered at rulebooks and wishing we were playing 7th edition. The only people I know who like 8th either work for GW or don't actually play.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 18:32

@TeenageAngst wrote:
My experience of 8th edition that been players standing around, staring bewildered at rulebooks and wishing we were playing 7th edition. The only people I know who like 8th either work for GW or don't actually play.

What don't you like about 8th? I'm honestly curious. My group couldn't be happier to flip the bird to 7th as it disappears. 8th is vastly more enjoyable. The death of stupid detachments/allies, the simplification of a lot of aspects of the game while actually enhancing the value of positioning and movement (characters especially), and the changes to armies so that they actually play like they are "supposed to" (especially for Dark Eldar) have us loving the game. In my experience, most of the whiners on here and abroad seem to be incapable of comparing the game in the context of 8th. They lock into "my model no longer does the same thing it once did" rather than "wow, my model does something that gives it a distinct advantage in the new style of play."

As for the OP's experience. It sounds like you ran into a really rough matchup and he got some great dice rolls. One game isn't really a viable sample size. The deepstrike and charge is a less than 40% proposition, and there's a lot we can do to mitigate it by spreading our army out to deny real estate to the deepstriking models. As others have pointed out, Razorwing Flocks are great screeners that can eat up territory. I played a BA player who deepstruck 5 assault units (1 vanguard, 1 death company, 1 sanguinary guard, 2 assault units). He failed all 5 of their charges. We played the same game you did, only it was me absolutely savaging him. As we played more games, the novelty of first turn charges/deepstrike charges kind of wore off (too risky and we started to work out strategies for mitigating them). Dark Eldar are unbelievably fast, has two of the best "heavy" weapons in the game (Dark Lance and Disintegrator), awesome flyers, and we have a really nice mix of interesting and capable units. After my first five games, I'd say Drukhari are in a really nice space.
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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 18:43

With the 9" from enemy models/units isn't it a lot easier to bubble wrap/tie up our important units now?

If you have a string of any unit that stretches a foot or two across the table, wont a deepstriking+charging enemy unit have to wait for the unit to file into combat or if they kill enough of your unit so that they are then out of 1" even after pile-in aren't they then out of combat and easier to shoot down?

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 19:28

The 27 people in my club all like it but 1 person (but he doesnt count b.c he literally hates everything).

About the PL and points thing.. i need to look at that, i know its an "average based of the units points" but they could have put more weight on some things... not sure.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 19:31

In my experience so far, having huge squads in raiders isnt a good idea unless you have the points to take a lot of them. It makes it easier for the opponent to focus fire or surround you. At lower cost games it is more effective to use min squads in venoms and spread out, just like before.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 20:06

Yeah i like a 5/6 mans in them. but i'm a MSU type of person.

I did the math, at Rapid fire range and within shredder range(I need to look at the math again tho) 5 Trueborn with Shredders and a 10 man warrior with splinter cannon are 2pts differences but on average the trueborns do more wounds to T3, same to T4/5 and less on T6+

So honestly its hard to say if 10mans are worth it,

As for Threat: for me and my opponent threat is based on what can hurt you the most NOT point cost/size of a unit.

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PostSubject: Re: First game experience and impression   Mon Jun 19 2017, 21:16

@Skulnbonz wrote:
I wrapped my force with 4 flyers. Grey knights ported in but could not charge.
remember- they must be 9" away, so you have an 18" cushion to play with when wrapping

thats a really good use of fliers i hadnt actually thought of!! its sneaky and keeps you safe from the first turn blitz. and our fliers can take a pretty large amount of damage!!
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