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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Compliments   Sun Jun 18 2017, 07:05

so....

How can we augment our army with eldar, harlie, ect units?? I'm thinking maybe wraith constructs for toughness (I know, they can't use our transports), rangers? for sniping capabilities (i can see blob guard with commissars becoming a thing), maybe star/void weavers, hornets, ect...

what do you lot think?
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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Sun Jun 18 2017, 09:56

Take Ynnari, add whatever will compliment your list best. I personally go with mostly a DE Ynnari army, with Triumvirate and some Craftworlders for added umph (Wraithguard for brutal tank busting, Wraithknight cause I like the model), rangers are fun, I also like banshees, they are pretty nifty now.

General idea is simple: if you want for something and DE does not provide, CE will probably have it to compensate.

Got to remember tho when you pick Ynnari, only infantry and Yncarne benefits from PfD.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 01:56

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Got to remember tho when you pick Ynnari, only infantry and Yncarne benefits from PfD.

And bikes!

Yes, Ynnari is the best way to splice in CW counterparts to help you compliment your Dark Eldar.

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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 08:31

You don't need Ynnari - in fact, I would suggest not going that way and just use the Aeldari keyword to let you mix and match as you like in the detachment(s).

Ynnari loses power from pain AND removed the options for Coven units and a couple of other things... and while SfD is good - the loss of PfP is now a significant thing since the chart is actually pretty damn good.

Even battlefocus for the CWE is ok - it is outshone by SfD but PfP trumps both IMO


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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 09:03

You haven't seen SfD from WG D-Scythes then. SfD is amazing if you're able to utilize it frequently and skillfully, so it requires pre-planning. It's a trigger for a reason.

I'm waiting for FW Xenos to come out so I can see what other options we have. Currently though, I'm enjoying Ynnari A LOT in the new edition.

Maybe this latest article will help:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2017/06/ynnari-balancing-out-faction.html

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 11:01

Yeah, I have played and seen SfD used... its good for sure. For CWE its a solid choice over battle focus but the loss of PfP for DE is a significant loss for some builds.


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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 18:14

SfD is extremely situational. PFP and Rising Crescendo are better in almost every circumstance because it's never a gamble. CWE benefit because Battle Focus is absolute garbage now but that's about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 19:46

If you're saying that it's extremely situation, you're not using SfD correctly. I'm having it trigger continuously throughout the game for big damage, that have big impacts on the game. They're insane on WG D-scythes, absolutely insane.

Rising Crescendo I can see an argument for, but in my current army comp, I would never take PfP over SfD.

I guess it all depends on what you plan on fielding as an army.

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 21:25

Gotta agree with Hero, if you think PfD is situational, your list is clearly not cut out to maximalize it. If your army consists mostly of vehicles and long-range fire support, then it's better to stick to standard army rules. It's similar to combo decks in MTG - you either build your army around it or it's just a fluff addition.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Mon Jun 19 2017, 22:13

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Gotta agree with Hero, if you think PfD is situational, your list is clearly not cut out to maximalize it. If your army consists mostly of vehicles and long-range fire support, then it's better to stick to standard army rules. It's similar to combo decks in MTG - you either build your army around it or it's just a fluff addition.

Bingo.  And one of the reasons why I've reduced all my Warriors down to 5-man squads that when they die horrifically for whatever reason (including sacrificing them in CC sometimes), their deaths will allow my D-scythes to do terrible things.

When you build for SfD, you don't splash for it, you go for the combos.  Since doughnut mentioned MTG, this is the difference between playing something UR Cascade vs. Merfolk. When you go off, your opponents feel it.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 02:55

I have played a bunch of Ynnari in 7th (ynnari vs ynnari is messed up! We got 7 double Soulbursts down the rabbit hole at one point!).

You are correct that building for it is the way to maximise it. The problem is that in 8th, the units that can utilise it and do so well are not as great as they once were.

5 Dscythes is either 5/10/15 hits that do 1 damage each. Its not terrible, don't get me wrong, but given how many things are multi wounds now, 1 damage kinda sucks.

I also worry that a canny player can stop you chaining SfD with correct target priority and wound allocation - it was easy to control in 7th thanks to how you removed models but its less so now.

I think Ynnari are going to be great in general, but they are far and away not as good as 7th

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 07:54

@Massaen wrote:

I also worry that a canny player can stop you chaining SfD with correct target priority and wound allocation - it was easy to control in 7th thanks to how you removed models but its less so now.

I think Ynnari are going to be great in general, but they are far and away not as good as 7th

Ynnari where way too strong in 7th, I personally think it's a good thing they are a bit neutered, a lot of players just plainly refused to play against them on my local tourneys.

Also, I think that the most effective use of soulbursts will be with strong cc units - given that you can charge T1 now and general focus on quicker, more pitched battles, it's a fun idea to go with blobs of CC monsters supported by long-range fire to trigger Soulburst where you need, when you need.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 18:31

Take Harlies instead of Wyches, they do a better job of actually killing things and their mobility is not to be scoffed at.

Take Rangers if you feel the need to go character hunting.




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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 20:38

@Ikol wrote:
Take Harlies instead of Wyches, they do a better job of actually killing things and their mobility is not to be scoffed at.

Just remember, they work a bit different, a Harley comes at a price of 16 points without Embrace or even a priceier option like a Kiss or Caress, bringing him up to even 29 pts, while a bare-bones wych costs 9 pts and with special weapons 14 pts tops, so you can have twice the amount of wyches who spot overall better survivability (PfP, Drugs) and have awesome No Escape that can hold dangerous units in place. Harlies can be way killier, but at a price of 3 to 1, wyches come out on top. Also, you can put them in a Raider which helps them survive and me mobile way more than Harleys and in bigger blobs.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 21:46

Harlequins and Wyches fit a different purpose IMO. Harlies being in a smaller transport being the Starweaver actually works in their favor. It's blistering fast, pretty much just as survivable as a Raider due to its natural -1 to hit and 4++, and can deliver a strike package that hits significantly harder than any Wych package.

My current delivery package right now is a Troupe Master with Caress and Fusion Pistol, and the rest of the troupe packing Embraces. The Solitaire that comes to hang out is just pudding.

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mightydoughnut
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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 21:53

Yeah, that's basically my point - wyches are tarpits, harleys are a fast assult unit. Both have their advantages, but the cheaper ones are more utilitarian.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 22:07

@mightydoughnut wrote:
Yeah, that's basically my point - wyches are tarpits, harleys are a fast assult unit. Both have their advantages, but the cheaper ones are more utilitarian.

Assuming strike package of Succubus + Wyches in a Raider with Agonizers on both:
276 points in a Raider without PGL or ANY melee upgrades

Assuming strike package of my loadout above of Troupe Master w/ Caress, Fusion Pistol, 5x Troupes with Embrace and a Starweaver with 2x SCs:
281 points in the transport

I'm not entirely sure "cheaper" is the right phrasing I would describe the two, but tarpits vs. killers.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 22:38

If you go price per model, then yes, they are cheaper. If you want to kite them out to do exactly the same thing a fast assult 5-man harley squad is supposed to do, then obviously they will be cut short. I'm not saying harleys are bad or anything, I'm saying that I wouldn't take them over wyches the same way I wouldn't take Reavers over a Ravager. Two different roles, two different price tags.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Tue Jun 20 2017, 22:58

@mightydoughnut wrote:
If you go price per model, then yes, they are cheaper. If you want to kite them out to do exactly the same thing a fast assult 5-man harley squad is supposed to do, then obviously they will be cut short. I'm not saying harleys are bad or anything, I'm saying that I wouldn't take them over wyches the same way I wouldn't take Reavers over a Ravager. Two different roles, two different price tags.

Hmm.. that's where we'll differ (and that's fine). When I'm looking to spend ~280 on a CC element, I strongly favor the Harlequins over the Wyches for their lethality alone. That's another thing, if I'm playing Ynnari (which I am most of the time), I need a short-life expectancy either for myself or the enemy so I can reap the benefits of things dying a lot more.

Do you know the killhammer vs. PPM for Harlequins vs. Wyches? The difference should be drastically in favor or Harlqeuins vs. all targets while the Wyches have a little bit less than 2x the survival rate of the Harlequins.

I think with Falling Back being a thing vs. Harlequins and a possibility vs. Wyches (because it's not always guaranteed), killing more models is generally better than tarpitting.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Wed Jun 21 2017, 09:33

@HERO wrote:
@mightydoughnut wrote:
If you go price per model, then yes, they are cheaper. If you want to kite them out to do exactly the same thing a fast assult 5-man harley squad is supposed to do, then obviously they will be cut short. I'm not saying harleys are bad or anything, I'm saying that I wouldn't take them over wyches the same way I wouldn't take Reavers over a Ravager. Two different roles, two different price tags.

Hmm.. that's where we'll differ (and that's fine).  When I'm looking to spend ~280 on a CC element, I strongly favor the Harlequins over the Wyches for their lethality alone.  That's another thing, if I'm playing Ynnari (which I am most of the time), I need a short-life expectancy either for myself or the enemy so I can reap the benefits of things dying a lot more.

Do you know the killhammer vs. PPM for Harlequins vs. Wyches?  The difference should be drastically in favor or Harlqeuins vs. all targets while the Wyches have a little bit less than 2x the survival rate of the Harlequins.

I think with Falling Back being a thing vs. Harlequins and a possibility vs. Wyches (because it's not always guaranteed), killing more models is generally better than tarpitting.

Hero, you are missing my point - I am saying they are different roles, not that they are better than Harleys. And I agree, I would take Harleys in Ynnari over Wyches, as they are way more killy. Still, wyches are more suited for different roles and despite overall DE buffs, they are still underwhelming, but at least they are fast and cheap, so I'd be very tempted to drop a 20-man 200 pts. blobs just to force opponent to sweep through them while Ravagers and other ranged fire support mulches through him. And if he ignores them? Well, while not super good, they can bring a lot of pain in CC.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Wed Jun 21 2017, 10:44

Killhammer shows vs marines
wyches roughly 0.04 for wyches (assuming the best scenario an agonizer for the champ and attack drugs and turn3+)
Or in a worse case scenario 0.021 (agonizer and movement drugs in turn 1 or 2)
harlequins roughly 0.053 / 0.049 (depending on loadout)
VS guards
wyches might be better against guards and nids though (0.094 wych points vs 0.085 by harlequins)
Survivehammer vs marines
Shooting wyches are 1.5 times more survivable then harlequins
4.67 points of harlequins die (assuming embrace) from a boltershot vs 2.78 points of wyches
vs melee it gets much worse for the harlies (2.08 in the case of t+1 drugs)
They stay at 4.67 dead harlequin points while the wyches go down to 1.67 dead points of wyches per space marine attack (1.25 if +1 t drugs)

So we can conclude that harlies deal 1.3 to 2.5 times as much damage.
And they die 1.75 to 3.73 times as much.
Which means that for pure killy ness you want the harlies (expecially since their transport is better and you deal more damage in a small squad)
But as a tarpit or objective contester the wyches are much better.
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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Wed Jun 21 2017, 13:52

Played my DE as Ynnari on a local tourney last Sunday. Got 2nd place (1st one was a Craftworld Ynnari guy).

I took 2 raiders with 10 Wyches (agonizer for +1 attack drug and power sword on +1 Str drug).
4x 5 man kabalites with blasters on foot
5 Scourges with 4 DL
1 Dissie ravager
4 bases of birds
Yncarne and Yvraine as hq.
1500 points in total.

So Razorwing flocks go forvard and die causing the Yncarnes arrival, Whyches go on raiders nearby. Kabalite warriors go in a big blob with Yvraine in centre.

How does it work? SLAUGHTER. Almost every unit gets soulburst and attacks twice in one turn.
Imagine - the Yncarne casts smite and kills a rhino (wounded one). Scourges nearby get soulburst and shoot at a Dreadnought destroying it. Wyches attack immediatly and kill a Capellan in CC, 2nd squad of whyches finishes another enemy in CC. AND THAT WAS JUST A PSYCHIC PHASE!

First game - almost tabled ultramarines leaving only 5 man tactical squad and lost my own units for about 350 points.
2nd game - tabled Tau losing 294 points
3rd game against brimstone/characters Deamon spam was hard but I won making missions. (my opponent cheated killing my Yncarne by copying its weapons with the Changeling, while he couldn't do it as I knew later).

And now I can't make myself playing standard DE with pfp again.

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:05

What did the Tau player bring?

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Wed Jun 21 2017, 17:00

@HERO wrote:
What did the Tau player bring?

Crysis commander
Farsight
2x 3Crysis teams with 6 gundrones each
3 pathfinders
3x 6 fire warriors with 6 markerdrones each
broaside with missiles and sms and 5-6 unknown drones.

no tanks, so nothing scary

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PostSubject: Re: Compliments   Wed Jun 21 2017, 17:40

I forsee Tau missile spam being a problem for us.

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