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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sat Jun 17 2017, 23:46

AT least that's what i heard from my gaming group last night.
We are still learning 8th (only a handful of games in) so i took a fun, fluffy list to try out different units.

I took...
Succubus
Heamonculus
7 mandrakes
2x 5 warriors- Venom
5 warriors- Raider
5 wyches- Raider
10 wracks on foot
3x3 reavers
ravager- DL
ravager- dissies
2 talos
Not competitive at all I'm sure you'll agree.

1st game vs BA
Mephiston
Sang priest
sang guard
death company
3x10 tac units
3x10 ass units
scouts
baal pred
twin heavy flamer speeder.

2nd game vs Necrons
Destroyer lord
2 Crypteks
2x 10 immortals
2x 10 warriors
night scythe
2x 3 destroyers
anni barge
2x 5 Wraiths

Both games went similarly.
He moves forward. I kite (a little) and focus down his fast units. Then mop up the rest. Just that easy.
Both games were a rout. They didn't stand a chance. Tabled the BA turn 5. Tabled the Necrons turn 4.
Shocked

The group of guys said "DE have excellent shooting, excellent CC, fast as lightning, and the skimmers are tough nuts. No weaknesses at all. DE are OP!"

I couldn't disagree with them. My list was fluffy junk and i just murderlated my opponent's armies. It was like playing on easy mode. Neutral
Any thoughts?
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 00:00

I can't pinpoint what's good about dark eldar. On paper it all looks so middling.

But in practice it just all works.

Of particular note for me was charging all my opponents rhinos and land raider with venoms. He lost all shooting to fall back whereas I could just fade out and fire to full effect.

It was the same with combat. Tying his Prince and hellbrute with wyches. Then falling back to shoot him and and then repeat.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 00:26

The Red King wrote:
Of particular note for me was charging all my opponents rhinos and land raider with venoms.  He lost all shooting to fall back whereas I could just fade out and fire to full effect.
Yep i almost felt guilty. His vehicles were now useless for a turn because they had been charged but mine could fall back and shoot and i never suffer -1 to hit. I also get a 5++ and a -1 to hit on venoms just cos.

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Sarkesian
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 01:03

DE definitely feel more threatening this edition so far. Can't wait to get my next game in. Gonna bring out the Voidraven!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 01:20

Probably is due to the fact that we had to rely on extremely accurate tactical decisions in 7th to not die horribly on the bottom of turn 2 and to make our lackluster army work, whereas now, with good shooting weapons and CC capabilities, those same tactical decisions increase the results exponentially.
We are almost a point-and-click army but with the tactical experience of past editions.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 01:55

Can't day much about the BA lost, but the necron lost was pretty poor. Wraiths lost a lot and he didn't take much to help out his troops. Typically you are going to see max units of warriors with a cryptek overlord and a ghost barge in tow. It's not too difficult to kill off 10 warriors

I'm happy to see that an average list like yours perform so well though!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 07:55

merse24 wrote:
Can't day much about the BA lost, but the necron lost was pretty poor. Wraiths lost a lot and he didn't take much to help out his troops. Typically you are going to see max units of warriors with a cryptek overlord and a ghost barge in tow.  It's not too difficult to kill off 10 warriors

I'm happy to see that an average list like yours perform so well though!

Thanks mate.

Wraiths seem pretty strong still. 12" move, ignore terrain, 3++, T5 3W, S6 -1ap in CC for 38pts. What have they lost? Are you talking bout the harvest formation that gave them RP?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 09:11

We are OP?
I will quote here:
"Hell. It's about time."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J6-3l3hCm0

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 12:15

Congrats on your wins.

Were there any units or weapons that performed especially well?

Painjunky wrote:
The group of guys said "DE have excellent shooting, excellent CC, fast as lightning, and the skimmers are tough nuts. No weaknesses at all. DE are OP!"

I'd agree with the shooting part (though, if I might reuse CptMetal's quote "Hell. It's about time"), but I'm puzzled about the 'excellent CC' remark. What amongst our melee stuff do they consider excellent? Neutral

merse24 wrote:
Can't day much about the BA lost, but the necron lost was pretty poor. Wraiths lost a lot and he didn't take much to help out his troops. Typically you are going to see max units of warriors with a cryptek overlord and a ghost barge in tow.  It's not too difficult to kill off 10 warriors

Yeah, his list seemed geared towards MSU but you really can't do that with the new Necrons. Ideally, you want every squad with RPs to be maxed out (so you'd want 20-man warrior squads and 5-man destroyer squads).
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 14:57

I find that Hellions did pretty well in CC. Whether you give them the +1 attack or +1 strength drug, they are a solid option. And being able to fly out of combat and charge in the same turn is really good! They really did some good damage to the Tau I was playing against.

They have a lot of attacks and hit on a 2+ after... turn 3 I want to say. I wish they had some AP but the amount of dice they throw almost makes up for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 15:05

Can't figure out how to quote from my phone, but @Painjunky....in my opinion the loss of Rending on the wraiths was a huge loss for them. They did give them a -1AP which makes up for that a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 15:28

The Shredder wrote:
Congrats on your wins.

Were there any units or weapons that performed especially well?

Thanks mate!

The combination of DL, blasters and dissies on vehicles, units and bikes was amazing as everyone knows. 1st turn vs BA I blew up the baal pred. 1st turn vs crons i shot down the night scythe.

I love that high AP is essentially ignore cover now.

I mostly reserved my splinter for units with less than a 3+ save (after cover) and it did the job, but was impressed that it could hurt vehicles when really needed.

The talos, wrack and heamy blob shrugged off an ungodly amount of damage from shooting and CC and kicked a significant portion off ass.

Our skimmers are tough and not bad in CC. I did not lose a single skimmer in 2 games. Not even 1 half damaged! The taloi drew most fire.

Loved the drakes. The bikes were very handy. Ravagers are sick. Really liked the PGL and agos on all my sybarites. PFP is sweet.

The Shredder wrote:
Painjunky wrote:
The group of guys said "DE have excellent shooting, excellent CC, fast as lightning, and the skimmers are tough nuts. No weaknesses at all. DE are OP!"

I'd agree with the shooting part (though, if I might reuse CptMetal's quote "Hell. It's about time"), but I'm puzzled about the 'excellent CC' remark. What amongst our melee stuff do they consider excellent?  Neutral

I know! It doesn't look amazing but my list actually felt very powerful in CC on the table and my opponents obviously felt it too.

As i said the taloi, wrack and heam blob worked surprisingly well and they were backed up by the succubus(glave, blast pistol) and wyches (ago, blast pistol, hydra) and the reavers (blasters, ago's, grav talons) and the warriors (agos on sybarites) and the raiders and ravagers (shock prow) the mandrakes pitched in too.

Everything hitting on 2+ turn 3 is just nucking futs!

I believe it was that i softened targets up with fire power first then had so many options and layers of CC that made it feel and appear so effective. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 15:44

Painjunky wrote:

Thanks mate!

The combination of DL, blasters and dissies on vehicles, units and bikes was amazing as everyone knows. 1st turn vs BA I blew up the baal pred. 1st turn vs crons i shot down the night scythe.

I love that high AP is essentially ignore cover now.

I mostly reserved my splinter for units with less than a 3+ save (after cover) and it did the job, but was impressed that it could hurt vehicles when really needed.

The talos, wrack and heamy blob shrugged off an ungodly amount of damage from shooting and CC and kicked a significant portion off ass.

Our skimmers are tough and not bad in CC. I did not lose a single skimmer in 2 games. Not even 1 half damaged! The taloi drew most fire.

Loved the drakes. The bikes were very handy. Ravagers are sick. Really liked the PGL and agos on all my sybarites. PFP is sweet.

Thank you. That's all useful to know when it comes to writing my first list for 8th edition DE. Smile

Painjunky wrote:

I know! It doesn't look amazing but my list actually felt very powerful in CC on the table and my opponents obviously felt it too.

As i said the taloi, wrack and heam blob worked surprisingly well and they were backed up by the succubus(glave, blast pistol) and wyches (ago, blast pistol, hydra) and the reavers (blasters, ago's, grav talons) and the warriors (agos on sybarites) and the raiders and ravagers (shock prow) the mandrakes pitched in too.

I believe it was that i softened targets up with fire power first then had so many options and layers of CC that made it feel and appear so effective. Very Happy

Interesting. Coming from 7th, I wouldn't have expected most of that blob to even make it up the field, let alone into combat. Razz

Painjunky wrote:
Wraiths seem pretty strong still. 12" move, ignore terrain, 3++, T5 3W, S6 -1ap in CC for 38pts. What have they lost? Are you talking bout the harvest formation that gave them RP?

I can't speak for merse24, but Wraiths did indeed lose that formation (which allowed Spyders to give them RPs). They also exchanged Rending for -1AP on all attacks. Not sure whether that was a good trade-off. Also, Whip Coils are now complete garbage.

However, I think their main losses have been with the core rules:
- S6 is far less effective than it used to be. Wounding marines on 3s instead of 2s is a big difference for a unit that relies on weight of wounds rather than AP to win. What's more, they're a lot worse at glancing vehicles to death.
- They can no longer lock units down in combat. This is a key point because they've always had relatively low damage output and relied on their resilience to attrition units down.
- They don't really synergise with anything. They still lack RPs (so get no benefit from a Resurrection Orb), Crypteks and the My Will Be Done rule only helps Infantry, Destroyer Lords ony help Destroyers. I mean, I guess it's good if you want units that basically move and act independently from the rest of your army, but it also means that you can't improve them in any way or help them perform their role. This leads me to:
- They don't really have a role in the army anymore. They're just not good enough at any particular task to warrant taking them.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 16:06

The Shredder wrote:
Thank you. That's all useful to know when it comes to writing my first list for 8th edition DE. Smile

Your welcome.  Very Happy

The Shredder wrote:
Interesting. Coming from 7th, I wouldn't have expected most of that blob to even make it up the field, let alone into combat. Razz

Truth.
It a different game. Things are tougher and faster. 1st turn charges are a thing. CC is inevitable in 8th.

The Shredder wrote:
Painjunky wrote:
Wraiths seem pretty strong still. 12" move, ignore terrain, 3++, T5 3W, S6 -1ap in CC for 38pts. What have they lost? Are you talking bout the harvest formation that gave them RP?

I can't speak for merse24, but Wraiths did indeed lose that formation (which allowed Spyders to give them RPs). They also exchanged Rending for -1AP on all attacks. Not sure whether that was a good trade-off. Also, Whip Coils are now complete garbage.

However, I think their main losses have been with the core rules:
- S6 is far less effective than it used to be. Wounding marines on 3s instead of 2s is a big difference for a unit that relies on weight of wounds rather than AP to win. What's more, they're a lot worse at glancing vehicles to death.
- They can no longer lock units down in combat. This is a key point because they've always had relatively low damage output and relied on their resilience to attrition units down.
- They don't really synergise with anything. They still lack RPs (so get no benefit from a Resurrection Orb), Crypteks and the My Will Be Done rule only helps Infantry, Destroyer Lords ony help Destroyers. I mean, I guess it's good if you want units that basically move and act independently from the rest of your army, but it also means that you can't improve them in any way or help them perform their role. This leads me to:
- They don't really have a role in the army anymore. They're just not good enough at any particular task to warrant taking them.

Fair enough. That makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 16:19

I have to agree. I played a game using Power Level yesterday - 2 on one. It was over by turn 3.

Two chapters of Space marines vs an outrider detachment of DE and a patrol of 'Quins.


What I ran:
Hamey with Hex rifle - plonked a few wounds off characters here and there

2 x 3 man squads of reavers with heat lance and grav talons - were annoying but didn't do much. They drew a bit of fire power though and let my opponents feel good about themselves for killing something

2x 5 man squads of hellions with PGL and Agoniser - never actually got these guys into combat. One squad got erased first thing off the board. The other flew around mopping up squads as needed. Very effective. They were part of a highlight for me I will detail below.

2 x Razorwings with DL and SC - these things a BROKEN. I felt bad about taking them half way through turn 2!

3 x 5 man kabalites with a blaster - they sat in two raiders along with:

1 x 5 man true born with 4 blasters - also in a raider. These two squads made for very - very durable gun boats! I forsee a lot of double true born in raiders.

2 x raiders - These guys lasted the whole game. Their movement, the ability for the above passengers to fire, and the number of dark light shots I could put out was insane. Shock Prows are very good too. These will always be an auto include for me.

2 x 3 ravagers with all DL


Couple quick observations from the game.


We are wicked fast. I know that was known, and I know a lot of people complained about Eldar having faster vehicles etc - but from turn one I have everything in their face. The difference I feel is that while many other armies have a unit here or there that is fast, our entire army can be. And we can do so with out penalties to shooting / assault. Battles happened when and where I wanted. Even with them slapping a drop pod down, they got a round of shooting off and then I moved away from it till I could swing back and clean it up

Dark Lances are amazing. The AP on them makes most everything just.... die. I rolled really hot - like 3 DL from a Ravager hit the enemy Land Raider on my first turn. For Damage I got 15 off three! I don't think I had a single DL roll under 4 for damage the whole game.

Split fire is awesome for us. My razorwings were able to shred through units with their choice of missiles and cannons, while their dark lances punished enemy armor.

Charging a squad flamers hurts. A lot of lots.

Highlight of the game for me was my opponent was using two very small units of damaged marines to shield Vulkan. One single marine and a two man squad. I was forced to angle my Razorwing so those two squads were between it and Vulkan.

Moved up the hellions so they had range on both squads and split fire 6 shots into the two man and 4 into the one. Ended up killing all three marines, opening up for my Razorwing to drop two Dark Lances onto Vulkan, one of which hit, wounded, and slapped him for 6 damage

Enjoy this while it lasts - I foresee DL getting nerfed soon!
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 17:55

Why should They be nerfed? Essentially They are our lascanons

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 18:12

CptMetal wrote:
Why should They be nerfed? Essentially They are our lascanons

They sacrifice 12 inches of range and 1 strength point for better ap. Hardly broken! Maybe they get a price spike?
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 18:26

I don't think they are broken per say. But they are good. And they melt space marines. Hence why I think we will get nerfed. Maybe lose the assault typing on vehicles
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 18:36

So then just remove the heavy keyword. I never used the assault ability if them. 14 inches was enough.
However I also fear the nerfbat.
But I'm having a ball right now.
I personally think it's a combination of us playing like it's 7th ed and we need to play smart and our opponents playing like it's 7th and they can just ignore things because there's some scenery in the way.
Absolutely loving how we play at the moment. On Tuesday I'm running my first squad of mandrakes ever.
Still a little disappointed in our archons but hey. I can live with that.
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 19:31

I'm trying to think of how haywire might still be used. I do have a few modeled on my painted guys. Sure they are worse against vehicles now, only wounding 50% of the time. Do they still have some use? I will be facing necrons pretty regularly, so would they be a solid option against molecular shielding? Or whatever their shields are called...
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 19:39

Sarkesian wrote:
I'm trying to think of how haywire might still be used. I do have a few modeled on my painted guys. Sure they are worse against vehicles now, only wounding 50% of the time. Do they still have some use? I will be facing necrons pretty regularly, so would they be a solid option against molecular shielding? Or whatever their shields are called...

What I found out was that, in theory, they are extremely reliable against vehicles with an Invulnearable Save. So, they have their nice, but that's sadly about it.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Sun Jun 18 2017, 19:42

Sarkesian wrote:
I'm trying to think of how haywire might still be used. I do have a few modeled on my painted guys. Sure they are worse against vehicles now, only wounding 50% of the time. Do they still have some use? I will be facing necrons pretty regularly, so would they be a solid option against molecular shielding? Or whatever their shields are called...

Quantum Shielding.

And yes, Haywire would probably be effective against them. However, I imagine Blasters would also be effective against them as well (on average they're doing 2 damage, which the shields will struggle to prevent). But, unlike Haywire, they'd also be effective against a lot of other things, too. tongue
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Mon Jun 19 2017, 00:10

I think Logan Frost and Vathek have it right.

Its like we've been fighting with a butter knife for years and we've gotten quite good with it.
We can hold our own... mostly.
Then one fine day we pick up a KA-BAR.

COME AT ME BRO!! Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Mon Jun 19 2017, 01:54

"I forsee DL getting nerd soon!"

lol.  Yeah, let's take away one of the main advantages that makes DE, you know, DE.

I predict that threads like these will be out there for every single army, not just ours being OP in the next several weeks.  That's what happens in the video game world when a game with factions gets released.  It's always the other guy who's OP Wink

For the dedicated TT player, with an reboot across all factions at the same time, this might be an alien concept.  Regardless, I think it's important for us to rejoice that DE is no longer an auto-win across the table, but take battle reports saying we're OP with a grain of salt.

Bathe in the salty tears of your enemies while it lasts.

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PostSubject: Re: Dark Eldar are OP!   Mon Jun 19 2017, 08:03

While dark lances are great (killed a hive tyrant one turn and a carnifex the next with some poison and 1 dark lance) But we have relatively few other options, heat lances are vastly overpriced, haywire is good in a few specific situations, but is expensive for what it can do, poison is nice but no use against vehicles. We really need those lances (and to alesser extent the disintegrators) to kill vehicles.
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