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 FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 09:50

This came up today, lets see what you guys think.

There are wounds and damage, we all know this, and the order goes.
1) Roll to hit
2) Roll to wound
3) Roll to save
4) Roll the damage

FnP and PFP along with many others say "when you take a wound roll a D6".

Meaning the opponent makes its wound roll (it didnt wound you yet) its a D6 wounding hit, they roll a 3, now you take 3 wounds, b.c you took a wound you get 3 FnP/PFP rolls.

BUT! (remember the order 1,2,3 for hit, wound, save, damage)

The Yncarne says "When suffers an "Unsaved wound or mortal wound", roll a D6"

Some of us are reading that the Yncarne writen rule is when you "fail" the save then you roll the D6 before damage is rolled, so a 6 will stop the D6 damage.

What do you think?

I think ALL these rules are rolled before the damage is rolled due to how the steps are written in the BRB.

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 09:57

Moved to Rules forum - Count Adhemar

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:00

Oh sry!

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:17

Yeah the wording it rather strange, the way I sequence it my head is;

- You are hit
- You are wounded
- You fail your save
- Damage is rolled for (or the static value is used)
- Total wounds equal to the damage result are removed from the model (to a maximum of that models wound characteristic as any "excess" wounds are lost as per page 181)
- The yncarne's aura (or our pfp roll) is then rolled for each non excess wound caused

The wording of the resolve attacks section in the shooting portion of the book is very particular with its wording, it says you suffer damage after failing a save, not wounds, and the inflicting damage section specifically states that you only lose wounds until the model is dead, any excess are lost.

So going by this logic, no wounds are considered lost until after the damage value has been applied, to the maximum of the models wounds value.

For example, if a 1 wound wych fails her armour/invul save vs a lascannon, and said lascannon rolls a 6, you apply that 6 to her wounds stat, in this case, it caps out at 1 wound before she "dies", then you roll one die to possibly negate that killing wound. If a talos was instead the target, the 6 wounds are applied to his pool of 7, no excess wounds in this case are lost, so 6 dice are rolled.

At least that's the way I would interprate it, its very strangely worded rule, and very easy to overthink.
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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:24

I understand that PoV.

The other PoV is that Wounds and Damage are 2 different things, Wounds being 1 step and Damage being another, you are rolling the FnP/Yncarnes in the "Wound step".

Lets say you are correct, wouldnt the Yncarnes be before the Damage rolls? B.c you roll when you "make a saving roll and fail it" not "when you take a wound" it is worded completely different.

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:34

Well I have the rule here in front of me and its specifically says "whenever a friendly Ynnari unit within 6" of the yncarne suffers an unsaved wound or mortal wound, roll a D6. On a 6 that wound is ignored.

I think the "unsaved" wound is just a relic of 7th edition where attacks that went unsaved were always just 1 wound (or instant death). But the point is it still deals with wounds, not unsaved damage, calling wounds unsaved is a little redundant now, as the damage is the thing going unsaved, the wounds are just a result of that applied damage result or value, they are technically unsaved too, as they come from an unsaved source, but you never technically make a "save" vs the wound, only the weapon before the damage is applied.

Its weird, but there seems to be a difference between "being wounded" (i.e. someone made a successful to wound roll vs you), and "suffering a wound" or "losing" a wound (i.e. removing wounds from your models wound characteristic as a result of non excess inflicted damage)


Last edited by Orasann on Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:38; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:36

Despite the massive changes to the game, GW seem to be clinging to certain terminology, like 'unsaved wounds' and it's causing confusion.

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:40

We cant make assumptions tho.

If we are making assumptions of 7th then "fly" units cant go in transports, etc...

Are there mistakes in the Index's? Yes, could this be a miss type? yes, do we assume it is? I wouldnt, its a 330+ point model, it might be MEANT to have a better version of FnP albeit a 6+ but better in a different way.

Given rules as writen, what do you think?

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:53

The rule says "whenever a friendly Ynnari unit within 6" of the Yncarne suffers an unsaved wound or mortal wound, roll a D6. On a 6 that wound is ignored"

You allocate wounds at step 3 of the sequence for resolving attacks. At that stage it is not an unsaved wound because you have yet to roll for your save. Mortal wounds are specifically allocated in the same way.

You only suffer wounds at step 5 (pg 181 of the rulebook), which occurs after you roll for damage. So my reading is that you have to roll damage first and then take your 6+++ for Ynnead Stirs for each point of damage (wound) suffered.

They really needed to change the terminology so that there is a clear, written distinction between Wounds and Damage. Damage is essentially unsaved wounds in 7e terms.

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:54

Yeah, i'm hearing it from both sides. Just wanted more views.

When GW has Damage and Wound on 2 different steps but then uses those 2 words interchangeably its puts players in a odd place.

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 11:41

I think the problem with the wording has more to do with the "unsaved" portion than anything, if the rule said "roll a dice for each wound suffered" it would be a clean cut as they come.

The problem is we are all stuck in the mentality of "oh I failed a save, so I suffer an unsaved wound" when that's not the case any more, failing a save, causes unsaved damage, unsaved wounds aren't really a thing anymore, they've been replaced with "lost" or "suffered" wounds as a result of applying the inflicted damage result or value.

The thing to focus on in the pfp and yncarne rules is that they all concern wounds, not damage, trying to take the 6+++ immediately after failing an armour or invul save is a little dubious, as you are rolling to ignore damage, not wounds, at least as I interperate it, I could very well be wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 11:49

My problem is wound are in 2 steps, it is Step 3 and step 5.

Starting with step 3, you allocate the wound, then roll to save it. It even says "successfully wounds the target". are these rules refering to this wound step? or the other step wher you take damage that is also called a wound.

Im not arguing to be right, i'll play it either way, just another side of the argument is all.

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 11:51

With GW using playtesters now, hopefully it's only a matter of time before they start using editors!

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 11:57

Lol yeah, shouldnt be questioned at all, they just need to literally replace or add 1 word

"Whenever this model takes damage roll X dice for each damage"

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PostSubject: Re: FnP/Yncarne, proper ordering?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 21:08

From everything I ever seen and heard I think Damage and wounds are 2 completely different things. Yncarne special rule states "unsaved wound or mortal wound". Step "5. Inflict Damage" on page 181 says "lose one wound for each point of damage". They're not unsaved wounds, because saving throws happen at step 4. Step 5 is just counting down a wound characteristic on a model, the model does not get a chance to save them, and the yncarne rule doesn't work for damage.

Like I said, I'm pretty sure. It's definitely a question for a FAQ though. Be sure to post it on Warhammers community Facebook page
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