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 Rerolls before Modifiers

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Hekatrix
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 15 2017, 08:42

So do we have any way to get a +1 on our rolls (Those bonusses then might make haywire slightly more usefull and make mandrakes great)
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:15

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Intended?

I'd say intended:

GW community site, skitarii faction focus wrote:

...The shooting version (Corpuscarii) gives you mass amounts of shots that explode on a 6+ to hit. And be aware that if you can get a +1 to hit, you get the bonus hits on the roll of a 5 or 6 – especially if you’re standing next to a Character that lets you re-roll hits.

EDIT: The play testers have also specified this mechanic on several occasions.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:26

Still think it's remarkably dumb. You're firing shots that hit on a 3+ and you have a reroll to hit but you can't use it on shots that you know are going to miss once you apply a modifier!

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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 15 2017, 13:58

It is different, that is for sure. It nerfs rerolls pretty hard. At least against units with a -1 to hit modifier on them. Which force you to think about maybe shooting at another target with your units that have reroll to hit. It also makes it easier to stack bonuses because if you increase the WS you cap out at +2WS whereas multiple +1s to hit buffs can still be used to counteract -1 to hit debuffs etc.
The actual process is not harder than the previous one, other the fact that we have to relearn when to add +1. Which is a major pain but mostly because of mental entropy.
I think it adds a layer of strategy to the rules that is going to be fun to exploit.
For now it is a major buff to our venoms and fliers so I'm going to play it "as intended". Smile
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:04

Sorry for the necro, but does that mean Drazhar doesn't miss and after the +1 WS is given to Incubi that they never miss with Drazhar near? Since rolls of 1's are supposed to be fails but you add 1 so it's actually a 2 right?

Cause if so, then dag. Demiklaive Drazhar might be my new favorite infantry hunter.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:09

If i remember correctly a natural 1 is always a miss.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:11

No, because a WS adjustment doesn't actually apply to the roll - it applies to the characteristic, and a roll of 1 always misses, regardless of what your WS characteristic is.

Now, if there was an actual +1 to hit modifier (I have yet to see anything that actually has that), then, yes, you'd never miss, because the roll would be a 2 after modifiers (assuming that it isn't cancelled out by a negative modifier).
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:14

Right, but his rule states "add 1 to the hit rolls of all friendly Incubi units that are within 6" of Drazhar when they fight in the fight sub phase."

Hence my confusion of the "natural 1" and that the modified roll is no longer natural.

Edit: does the codex trumps BRB still apply?
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:20

@Barrywise wrote:
Right, but his rule states "add 1 to the hit rolls of all friendly Incubi units that are within 6" of Drazhar when they fight in the fight sub phase."

Hence my confusion of the "natural 1" and that the modified roll is no longer natural.

Wow, I didn't realize that. You might be onto something there.

Seeing as how 'gets hot' triggers on a 1 or 2 when firing at a venom, due to the modifier (as confirmed in the FAQ), I think this might actually cause incubi to never miss in close combat (barring the addition of a negative modifier to cancel it out).

I'll have to check the wording on misses. If it says something like "all unmodified rolls of 1 miss", then it won't work... but otherwise, it will work.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 20:34

From the BRB: Resolve Attacks - Hit Rolls: [...] A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply.
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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Thu Jun 22 2017, 21:10

@Logan Frost wrote:
From the BRB: Resolve Attacks - Hit Rolls: [...] A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply.

Ah! there we go. I knew it was too good to be true. Drazhar, Incubi, Cronos deathstar might still be something I'll look into though. They should be able to shred through Terminators and Bikes alike.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Fri Jun 23 2017, 11:21

The frontline crew covered this in a FAQ session, so apparently a natural 1 always miss, but you still add the modifier when it comes to affects that trigger on a 1.
So for instance if you shoot your overcharged plasma
with, say, a BS of 2+,
have a +1 to hit buff
and roll a 1,
you miss your shot, but do not overheat.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:20

@Scrz wrote:
The frontline crew covered this in a FAQ session, so apparently a natural 1 always miss, but you still add the modifier when it comes to affects that trigger on a 1.
So for instance if you shoot your overcharged plasma
with, say, a BS of 2+,
have a +1 to hit buff
and roll a 1,
you miss your shot, but do not overheat.

It makes sense, if a little counter-intuitive. I'd still prefer GW to produce a massive FAQ to cover all of this stuff, because I'm not inclined to automatically accept Frontline's word as gospel, even if they did do a lot of the playtesting - they still didn't actually write the rules, so I'd prefer to see rulings from the source.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Fri Jun 23 2017, 14:26

That's my main issue with this. It's so counter-intuitive. It's not just a new way of doing it. Having an ability to re-roll misses and having a bunch of dice that you know are going to miss but can't re-roll is just crazy.

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inevitable_faith
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Sat Jun 24 2017, 23:39

Would have just been easier in my opinion to make a blanket rule that for abilities that trigger on a 1 or 6 they only apply on a natural roll of 1 or 6. This way plasma only ever has a 1 in 6 chance of overheating (fluff-wise plasma having a higher chance of overheating due to the target being hard to hit is pretty ridiculous) and regardless if something gives you a -1 to dice result, your abilities (such as those on the CC weapon of the cronos) can still occur. Apply this to abilities such as "re-roll 1's to hit" auras so only natural rolls of 1 are affected as well. This cleans up weapon specific abilities on both ends and makes their proc chance reliable and not abusable on either end.

Likewise change to the more intuitive modifiers before re-rolls system so that it's easier to understand for everyone what is a hit and miss. After all if you have BS 3+ and roll a 3 with a -1 modifier by re-rolls before mods standards you're not eligible to re-roll that dice even though it's a miss. On the other end if you roll a 2 with a +1 modifier it'd be a hit but you would be eligible for a re-roll even though you wouldn't want to re-roll it. Making it mods first allows you to quickly identify the hits and misses at a glance and only re-roll what's needed. Same thing with abilities only procing on natural 1's and 6's means at a glance you can take note of your special effects without having to remember that you overheat on a 1 AND 2 this time or that the target unit is immune to your cronos extra damage because of a modifier.

In shorthand deciphering dice effects could easily be established as:
Roll dice>Apply modifiers>Make eligible re-rolls>Apply modifiers to the re-rolled dice
"Any effect that occurs on a specific roll such as a 1 or a 6 will only occur on a natural roll of the required result before modifiers are applied."

Would the above little bit clarify rolling, re-rolls and modifiers in a clean, efficient, and easy to understand manner? Would it be abusable by any units or rules currently in the game? I can't think of any reason why the above wouldn't be a better way of handling these interactions but if anyone does see fault with them I'd like to hear your reasoning as to why, perhaps I'm missing something.
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Mon Jun 26 2017, 06:46

But why would plasma have a higher chance to overheat with a -1 to hit?
PLasma only overheats on a 1 right? not on a 0
So apply the modifiers, 1=> 0 Nothing about plasma sais anything about to hit rolls of 1 and lower?
It just means it overheats on a "natural 2" instead of a natural 1?

I think the reroll thing is mainly because it makes a difference between modifiers and rerolls.
Now a penalty to hit is worse if you have rerolls.
Also otherwise if someone gives a +1 to hit and you reroll 1's you suddenly cannot reroll those anymore, but they still miss.
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inevitable_faith
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Mon Jun 26 2017, 06:52

In the FAQ they clarified that negative modifiers are cumulative but they will only drop a roll down to a minimum of 1. So if you fire plasma overcharged with a -2 modifier you now overheat on a roll of 1, 2 or 3. Honestly I think it's ridiculous that they want it to work this way but unfortunately that's the way they wrote it.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Mon Jun 26 2017, 07:21

@inevitable_faith wrote:
In the FAQ they clarified that negative modifiers are cumulative but they will only drop a roll down to a minimum of 1. So if you fire plasma overcharged with a -2 modifier you now overheat on a roll of 1, 2 or 3. Honestly I think it's ridiculous that they want it to work this way but unfortunately that's the way they wrote it.

It might be a little odd... but you always have the option of simply not firing your plasma overcharged if you know that you're going to have 'to hit' penalties. It's not like previous editions where you didn't have a risk-free option. Conversely, it also means that you're never going to overheat if you have a +1 to hit modifier. So, I'm not really that sympathetic to plasma users, in this case.
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inevitable_faith
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Mon Jun 26 2017, 07:57

I understand you have the choice of not firing, and indeed some could argue this method of ruling would be a tactical aspect of the game, to only overcharge against the right targets and to always try to get +1 to hit so your plasma never overheats (on that note why is it that making a gun more accurate stops it from ever overheating?). Conversely one could also argue that it's blasphemy against the fluff of the weapon and makes no thematic sense why it would function like this. I'm not saying one side is right and the other is wrong but I think it's clear which method of ruling modifiers I prefer. On a side note I don't think rolls cap at 6 and so if you have a weapon special effect that triggers on a 6 and you roll a 6 with a +1 modifier then your special effect wouldn't go off unless it was worded to trigger on a roll of 6 or higher. As a player I'd find it disappointing to have my cool special effects not trigger because I "rolled too well".

For me it's not just about the overcharged plasma though, it's the precedent this ruling sets for every other weapon in the game. Many weapons will be completely precluded from ever having their special effects trigger against certain units as they need a roll of 6 but that unit confers a -1 modifier on them and the dangers to the user of using other weapons may increase exponentially if used against certain opponents or while under the effects of a debuff. I'm not sympathetic to plasma gun users specifically, they were just a convenient example, I'm more sympathetic to anyone who has rules that trigger on a 6 but don't get to use them even when they roll a 6 because of modifiers. I also worry that the game could be abused to mitigate or completely negate the negative effects of rolling a 1 on certain weapons. The dangers and perks of certain weapons should always exist in my opinion but due to how modifiers work currently they can be circumvented or negated.

There's pros and cons to both ways of thinking on modifiers and special effects, I don't think poorly of anyone who prefers the way the system works now (it does force more thought into where and how you use certain weapons) but personally I feel in too many cases it breaks the fluff of many weapons and could allow for some abuse of the system. Not remotely the amount of abuse 7th edition was open to of course, I'm honestly nit-picking on these rules compared to the rules abuse circus 7th introduced.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Rerolls before Modifiers   Mon Jun 26 2017, 09:35

It's mystifying to me how the designers simplified pretty much everything in the game (often too much so in my opinion) and yet decided to make the rerolls/modifiers rules needlessly complicated and unintuitive. The comment made by inevitable_faith about the ludicrous situation of a weapon becoming more or less reliable depending on who it's fired at really sums up the situation.

If an effect triggers on a 1 or a 6, just have it trigger on a natural 1 or 6. Simple, no confusion, no arguments, does exactly what it says on the tin. Job done.

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