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Archon_91
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PostSubject: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 20:25

Having played a game of 8th over the weekend I uncovered a few advantages that our vehicles have over most others that I have seen. That being a little line on the Dark lances profile for our vehicles that say "if mounted on a vehicle change this weapon from heavy to assault". The reason this is a major advantage for us is that on all other vehicles that I have seen (having only seen some space Marine and IG vehicles I can't compare this advantage to others) is because even vehicles suffer the -1 penalty to hit when firing a heavy weapon after the vehicle has moved. So while any weapon can hurt our vehicles in shooting when it comes to a heavy weapons platforms (enemy fliers and tanks) our vehicles are even more survivable due to the flicker fields -1 to hit modifier thus any heavy weapon that moved suddenly needs a 5+ to hit with MEQ shooting. Another advantage is vehicles can now fire overwatch when charged, and because our transports are open topped the guys inside can also overwatch (both myself and my opponent came to this conclusion after not finding anything in the rules that say otherwise). These are just the little tidbits from my one game.
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VeryDapperFellow
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 20:34

Mathhammer tells me it will take 240 shots from bolter marines to down just 1 raider, so our vehicles are actually more hardy than they were back in 7th. Sounds good to me Smile

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 20:44

And it showed in the game i played, but I used venoms instead of raiders and lost only one venom through the course of the game to bad rolls, but that is part of the game
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Klaivex Charondyr
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:00

@Archon_91 wrote:
Another advantage is vehicles can now fire overwatch when charged, and because our transports are open topped the guys inside can also overwatch (both myself and my opponent came to this conclusion after not finding anything in the rules that say otherwise).

This is wrong. The rules tell you exactly what you are allowed to do, do not confuse it with 7th.
There is no more general open topped rule.
You can attack in the shooting phase. That's it. Overwatch is not happening in the shooting phase.
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:12

i don't like this. our vehicles are durable and slow! (compared to other skimmers)

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:38

@klaivex i realize that "open topped" isn't a general rule anymore but it still a rule none the less as it is on the data sheet for our transports and ork transports, and the general consensus between my opponent, the GW store owner, and myself during the game was that because the "open topped" rule existed on the data sheet for my transports then the troops inside could shoot during the overwatch phase as they can see the enemy charging the vehicle ... Will this be the same in other playgroups? Probably not. So maybe I should have asked if anyone else has come to the same ruling ... And I have talked to other players from other playgroups that have had similar interactions where the ruling was yes if "open topped" exist​ on the transports data sheet then the riders can fire overwatch.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:39

@wormfromhell wrote:
i don't like this. our vehicles are durable and slow! (compared to other skimmers)

Me too.
The forgeworld Y'vahra battle suit has 18" movement and deepstrike shenanigans.
Raider is 14"...

Silly me thought DE were supposed to be fast. Mad
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Skulnbonz
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:45

They have to penalize us in some way, as the Venom and the Raider and the Ravager are without a doubt some of the best vehicles in the game right now.

If they had even more movement, it would be over the top unfair.


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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 22:36

@Skulnbonz wrote:
They have to penalize us in some way, as the Venom and the Raider and the Ravager are without a doubt some of the best vehicles in the game right now.  

If they had even more movement, it would be over the top unfair.


Just increase it's movement and decease a little bit it's wounds. We're meant to be fast, but easily destroyed.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 22:40

I'm perfectly ok with how the venom and raider turned out, having seen the new deployment maps you are almost never outside of a turn one charger with a raider unless you deploy on the back field in which case you will still probably be able to get within rapid fire range of something turn one as there is a 26" range on the raider to do so and with the venom having 16" of movement again unless you deploy far back they will have a turn one charge as well as it can be 20-23" charge threat on average
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 22:44

I'm fine with it too, but it's a matter of pride! We can't lose against our deviant brothers, especially when it's on the speed.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 22:49

Ah but they pay dearly for their speed as they cannot shoot out of their transports and any heavy weapon they have on those vehicles suffers to hit penalties ... We don't suffer those penalties , besides any race we have against our cousins we will win simply because we will shoot them down as they get ahead of us. We are masters of speed in the sense that we don't lose anything for going that, fast we can still shoot at full ballistic skill with our strongest weapons. We move fast enough to strike where we need to when we need to and that's all I need.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:35

@Archon_91 wrote:
@klaivex i realize that "open topped" isn't a general rule anymore but it still a rule none the less as it is on the data sheet for our transports and ork transports, and the general consensus between my opponent, the GW store owner, and myself during the game was that because the "open topped" rule existed on the data sheet for my transports then the troops inside could shoot during the overwatch phase as they can see the enemy charging the vehicle ... Will this be the same in other playgroups? Probably not. So maybe I should have asked if anyone else has come to the same ruling ... And I have talked to other players from other playgroups that have had similar interactions where the ruling was yes if "open topped" exist​ on the transports data sheet then the riders can fire overwatch.

Our playgroup has decided that if it's not written that you can specifically do it in the Open-top rule, then you cannot do it because the unit charging your Raider is not charging your Warriors, even though they're inside.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:55

Another big clue: our veichles can assault enemy units. You can soak any overwatch in this way, or just tarpit any shooting unit for a turn. The opponent then must decide between rest in combat or fall back. Until you will not assault any FLY unit, you will deny an entire shooting phase for that unit.

And you are doing it with, you know, a Venom! You don't need other units anymore, just do it with your veichles.

That's amazing for us!
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Tue Jun 13 2017, 01:42

@Archon_91 wrote:
@klaivex i realize that "open topped" isn't a general rule anymore but it still a rule none the less as it is on the data sheet for our transports and ork transports, and the general consensus between my opponent, the GW store owner, and myself during the game was that because the "open topped" rule existed on the data sheet for my transports then the troops inside could shoot during the overwatch phase as they can see the enemy charging the vehicle ... Will this be the same in other playgroups? Probably not. So maybe I should have asked if anyone else has come to the same ruling ... And I have talked to other players from other playgroups that have had similar interactions where the ruling was yes if "open topped" exist​ on the transports data sheet then the riders can fire overwatch.

Very first line of the Open topped rule

Quote :
Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase
emphasis mine

Phase 3 is Known as the Shooting Phase

Phase 4 is known as the Charge Phase

    Sub section  3 under phase 4 is know as Overwatch.
In that section it says,
Quote :
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...
It is not another shooting phase.

I believe this is extremely clear cut.

To summarize:
Open topped allows shooting in the Shooting Phase
Overwatch occurs in the Charge Phase, not the shooting phase.
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Crisis_Vyper
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Tue Jun 13 2017, 06:13

Assault weapons allows us to shoot after we advance. So in essence, unlike other vehicles we are able to move 14+d6 and then shoot.

The mobility is reduced for sure, but in return we gained more defensive upgrades and also offensive upgrades.

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Tue Jun 13 2017, 07:21

@dumpeal wrote:
@Skulnbonz wrote:
They have to penalize us in some way, as the Venom and the Raider and the Ravager are without a doubt some of the best vehicles in the game right now.  

If they had even more movement, it would be over the top unfair.


Just increase it's movement and decease a little bit it's wounds. We're meant to be fast, but easily destroyed.

yeah - 1/3 of the wounds and add like 4" and make both transports 20" with an 8" advance without shooting.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:49

@Faitherun wrote:


Very first line of the Open topped rule

Quote :
Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase
emphasis mine

Phase 3 is Known as the Shooting Phase

Phase 4 is known as the Charge Phase

    Sub section  3 under phase 4 is know as Overwatch.
In that section it says,
Quote :
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...
It is not another shooting phase.

I believe this is extremely clear cut.

To summarize:
Open topped allows shooting in the Shooting Phase
Overwatch occurs in the Charge Phase, not the shooting phase.

I agree, but fo the sake of argument:
Like a normal shooting attack: normal shooting attacks are made in the shooting phase, thus it acts as if it was in the shooting phase. Thus it is allowed Razz
I know this is hell of a dodgy interpretation, but you are going to hear it, you can be sure of it.
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Endstation
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Tue Jun 13 2017, 20:29

Another point why the unit inside can't overwatch:
The charging unit charges the transport, not the embarked unit.
"The target unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker."

This edition doesn't change the old one. It is complete new.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Tue Jun 13 2017, 23:35

@|Meavar wrote:
@Faitherun wrote:


Very first line of the Open topped rule

Quote :
Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase
emphasis mine

Phase 3 is Known as the Shooting Phase

Phase 4 is known as the Charge Phase

    Sub section  3 under phase 4 is know as Overwatch.
In that section it says,
Quote :
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...
It is not another shooting phase.

I believe this is extremely clear cut.

To summarize:
Open topped allows shooting in the Shooting Phase
Overwatch occurs in the Charge Phase, not the shooting phase.

I agree, but fo the sake of argument:
Like a normal shooting attack: normal shooting attacks are made in the shooting phase, thus it acts as if it was in the shooting phase. Thus it is allowed Razz
I know this is hell of a dodgy interpretation, but you are going to hear it, you can be sure of it.


Nope. That means that you have to follow alle the steps of the shooting action that normally you will follow into a shooting phase (choose the unit, choose the target, roll for hit etc.)
Not that the charge phase Becomes a shooting phase.
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Wed Jun 14 2017, 23:14

@|Meavar wrote:
@Faitherun wrote:


Very first line of the Open topped rule

Quote :
Models embarked on this model can attack in their shooting phase
emphasis mine

Phase 3 is Known as the Shooting Phase

Phase 4 is known as the Charge Phase

    Sub section  3 under phase 4 is know as Overwatch.
In that section it says,
Quote :
Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack...
It is not another shooting phase.

I believe this is extremely clear cut.

To summarize:
Open topped allows shooting in the Shooting Phase
Overwatch occurs in the Charge Phase, not the shooting phase.

I agree, but fo the sake of argument:
Like a normal shooting attack: normal shooting attacks are made in the shooting phase, thus it acts as if it was in the shooting phase. Thus it is allowed Razz
I know this is hell of a dodgy interpretation, but you are going to hear it, you can be sure of it.

Have to disagree - nowhere does it say you get another shooting phase. It say's "Like a shooting attack"

Attack - not phase.

Open-topped has a special ability that applies to the phase, not the attack.


I'd love to be wrong on this one
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Frederick Vael
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Thu Jun 15 2017, 00:03

I would like to point out that raiders and ravagers can advance and shoot, which I think many vehicles out there can't do.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Thu Jun 15 2017, 07:47

@Frederick Vael wrote:
I would like to point out that raiders and ravagers can advance and shoot, which I think many vehicles out there can't do.

Yeah it's pretty sweet. Cool
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Thu Jun 15 2017, 09:38

This has already been cleared up but defo can't overwatch with embarked units.

I also agree our transports are some of the fastest in the game.

They are not the best though. The Venom is average at best while the Raider is good. Neither are great.

I keep saying this, so at the risk of boring people, the Starweaver is hands down better than the Venom and is only 4 points more.
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drynwyn
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PostSubject: Re: The advantages of Dark Eldar vehicles    Fri Jun 16 2017, 04:16

I keep seeing people saying that the Starweaver is better, and that seems true in a comparison of just those two models, but as far as I can tell the Starweaver can only carry <Masque> Infantry models (IE, Harlequins). Is there some way to get Dark Eldar models into a Starweaver?

If not, I'd say the Starweaver is balanced out by the only thing you can put in it- Harlequin Troupes- being dramatically more costly than Dark Eldar units capable of filling a similar role (Incubi, in particular, come to mind), and being far more limited than the dark eldar infantry range in the tasks they can effectively perform.

The harlequin twinkie may be better, but our poisonous acid cream filling is both the superior flavor, and comes in far more varieties.
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