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merse24
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PostSubject: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:08

There are two changes in 8th that will be changing the way I play.... Split Fire and Ownership of Objectives.

With those 2 new rules in mind, how are you guys handling target priority in 8th? Previously in 7th, I would target a unit until it was completely removed from the table, but now I'm thinking that tactic may not be the most efficient anymore (except for Necrons of course).

Since the player that has more models on an objective is considered to "own" the objective, I'm now thinking that there may be a magic number of models or maybe a % of casualties to help determine them as no longer being a threat. For example, if I'm shooting at a 5 man squad of marines, once I kill 3, move on to the next target, since they are not much of a threat anymore. I'm sure special weapons will play a role in this decision though.

With a 10 man squad of warriors shooting their splinter rifles in rapid fire range, would it make sense to shoot only half at that 5 man squad and use the other half at another target?

Just trying to see if there is a new way to think about maximizing our damage output and target priority to eliminate threats as quickly as possible.
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:16

Keep in mind the new moral phase. If you start targeting a large squad, make sure you give it enough wounds that the Battleshock will kill the rest off. Nothing worse than leaving 1 marine alive with a plasma gun.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:32

I'm not a hundred percent on this, but I was under the impression that if a unit consists of multiple models carrying multiple ranged weapons, then you can split fire on a per-weapon basis, but not a per-model basis.

For example; Kabalite Warriors. 10 man unit, Sybarite with Splinter Pistol and Power Sword, one guy with a Blaster and another with a Splinter Cannon. The remaining 7 have Splinter Rifles. Another unit of Scourges sits on the periphery armed with 4 Dark Lances and a Shardcarbine.

Select the Unit. Our cannonfodder valuable Kabalite Warriors.

Select the weapon. Splinter Pistol.

Select the target. A unit of Primaris Marines within 12".

Roll to hit/wound/save.

Loop.

Kab-Warriors; Blaster; a struggling Ghost Ark within 18". Roll to hit/wound/save.

Loop.

Scourges; Dark Lances; a LandRaider within 36". Roll to hit/wound/save.

Kab-Warriors; Splinter Cannon; that Flyrant sitting at 35.74 inches away. Roll to hit/wound/save.

Loop.

Scourges; Shardcarbine; that lone Imperial Guardsman in the cor-OH MUSES!!! IT'S SLY! -transmission lost-...

Kab-Warriors; Splinter Rifles; that squad of Primaris Marines again (yay for Rapid Fire).

Loop.

I'll go and check. But yeah. Unfortunately, I don't think you can say "five splinter Rifles target the Primaris Marines, two Splinter Rifles target Marbo."

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:33

fisheyes wrote:
Keep in mind the new moral phase. If you start targeting a large squad, make sure you give it enough wounds that the Battleshock will kill the rest off. Nothing worse than leaving 1 marine alive with a plasma gun.

Is 1 marine with a plasma gun much of a threat in 8th though? Maybe if he's got a line of sight to your character.

Great point on the moral phase!

That makes me think of another question.....

Say you're shooting a 20 man unit that has LD 7, when is the optimal time to stop shooting at them? Once you've killed 7 and are guaranteed D6 additional kills? Or do you keep going to start "doubling up" on the kills? If you kill 11, 4 more will automatically die to moral, with D6 more... so there's a chance to completely wipe the squad at that point.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:37

Ikol wrote:
I'm not a hundred percent on this, but I was under the impression that if a unit consists of multiple models carrying multiple ranged weapons, then you can split fire on a per-weapon basis, but not a per-model basis.

Shooting phase rules seem pretty clear that both models and units can split fire as you see fit.

"If a model has several weapons it can shoot all of them at the same target or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model they can shoot at the same or different targets as you choose"

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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:44

Our Lord and Savior: Count Adhemar wrote:

Shooting phase rules seem pretty clear that both models and units can split fire as you see fit.

"If a model has several weapons it can shoot all of them at the same target or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly if a unit contains more than one model they can shoot at the same or different targets as you choose"
. Rendering my earlier comment pointless. Thanks for clarifying.

merse24 wrote:

That makes me think of another question.....

Say you're shooting a 20 man unit that has LD 7, when is the optimal time to stop shooting at them? Once you've killed 7 and are guaranteed D6 additional kills? Or do you keep going to start "doubling up" on the kills? If you kill 11, 4 more will automatically die to moral, with D6 more... so there's a chance to completely wipe the squad at that point.


I think at that point you have to decide how badly you want the unit dead, and what your other options are.  Say you've killed 11 of the 20 and have a Kabalite Warrior Unit that is yet to fire its splinter rifles, is there another target they could realistically try to damage?  Or is the only other thing within 24" a 50% obscured Landraider?

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:58

What is the average LD for most troop choices in 8th? I don't know but would assume 7. If that were the case in this example then it means that 7 is the magic number if you want to guarantee morale phase losses.

If the average roll was 3.5 on a D6 then you could potentially wipe out the rest of a 10 man unit in the morale phase after inflicting the magic number of 7 casualties.

If the unit was 20 strong it would be wise to aim to inflict 12 deaths which would mean the unit was wiped out on a average D6 roll in the morale phase.

That's how it seems to me at least and this is assuming a LD value of 7. Any squad leader buffs/near by HQ buffs to LD might help them out.

Phantasm Grenades for us are a really nice touch...could be very useful.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:03

Strikes me as odd that morale has less effect on smaller units. A unit of 2 with Ld8 is literally immune to morale. They're either dead or they're fine. A unit of 20 with Ld8 has to worry much more about casualties. Seems somewhat perverse.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:04

Count Adhemar wrote:
Strikes me as odd that morale has less effect on smaller units. A unit of 2 with Ld8 is literally immune to morale. They're either dead or they're fine. A unit of 20 with Ld8 has to worry much more about casualties. Seems somewhat perverse.

Looks like STRONG justification to continue to utilize MSU in my opinion.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:05

Something else to consider is how many blob squads are out there that don't play under special rules for morale.

Ork mob rules, Synapse for nids, imperial guard commissars...all these have rules that will disregard the normal morale phase rules.

Even Dark Eldar via PFP will eventually ignore the morale phase.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:14

I also think the morale phase, while its nice to be simplified, seems a little broken now.

A smaller unit with lower LD is potentially immune compared to a large unit of braver warriors.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 17:35

Count Adhemar wrote:
Strikes me as odd that morale has less effect on smaller units. A unit of 2 with Ld8 is literally immune to morale. They're either dead or they're fine. A unit of 20 with Ld8 has to worry much more about casualties. Seems somewhat perverse.

Well, to me, it seems like a clever way to give units like Talos the equivalent of 'Fearless', without actually having to create any new rules for it.
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:57

Interestingly enough, I see that Morale will come into play more in the latter parts of the game. Nids sysnapse will not help as much when the Synapse creatures are dead... furthermore cunning use of assault units could pull a little gribbles squad away from its synapse momma to start taking moral checks.

Orks with their Mob Rule won't ever really be effected.

Commissars are just begging to get sniped. And with their low stats (T3, w3, 5+ save, maybe 5++) they will die pretty quick to any attention.

A lot of things can get some immunity, but as the battle wages, they will drop. Ours, however, comes as the battle continues. Will be very interesting to see how this all balances out
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 06:44

PGL is also really effective when you're forcing morale checks. All you need to do is hit someone and they're afflicted, doesn't matter if it doesn't do damage. To make things even better, morale kills off entire models, including multi-wound models like tasty Crisis Suits or Wraithguard.

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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 08:30

Another thought that I had is that the MSU concept is not necessary any more since the splitfire. MSU is born by the concept of "1 unit strike 1 unit". 5 Centurions vs 3 Venoms, they always shoot down just 1 of them.

But not now. Now they can splitfire, a counter the MSU concept at all.


So now MSU can be useful for the number of units you are deploying (you know, you still have sacrifice tools for soaking overwatch, create some barriers for cc etc) but that's not necessary as before. Plus, our veichles are really strong now! It's a good thing to consider, open up more ways to list, we are free from the MSU concept now.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:09

I literally only seen 1 game where Moral mattered and it was a play test of Nids with lack of Synapse.

Other than that i've been a total of 2 total models die in 15 games.
Now, the PGL and Deathjester Combo might change that (something i want to try)
MSU will still be a thing and Hordes will just ignore it 99% the time.

Split fire is still extremely strong and i've used it every game so far!

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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 10:40

I played versus Orks. They suffer very hard of low morale. And they units get smaller very quick. Split fire with PGL will really make your day.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:55

Jeah I think that is the problem with morale.

Most hordes have a way to ignore it. They also need it, the mob rule works initially if you have several big units (you can use the nearby units morale of 30), but in the end they need the warboss to kick them into line. But our big units are the opposite, initially they have large problems, only at the end game can we ignore it. Thus we stick to MSU, not because of the lesser amount of dead from shooting, but because you rarely suffer morale death. Same goes for marines etc. Units of 5- rarely have problems with morale, units of 15+ often have some way of mitigating it. For units around 10 models the morale shenenigans are nice.
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:17

Count Adhemar wrote:
Strikes me as odd that morale has less effect on smaller units. A unit of 2 with Ld8 is literally immune to morale. They're either dead or they're fine. A unit of 20 with Ld8 has to worry much more about casualties. Seems somewhat perverse.

Maybe the justification is that it is easier for individuals to slip away unnoticed when they are part of a big confused group, and not just a merry band of four other guys?

Also, if you plan for it, one can use command points to autopass one or two morale rolls.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:20

|Meavar wrote:
Jeah I think that is the problem with morale.

Most hordes have a way to ignore it. They also need it, the mob rule works initially if you have several big units (you can use the nearby units morale of 30), but in the end they need the warboss to kick them into line. But our big units are the opposite, initially they have large problems, only at the end game can we ignore it. Thus we stick to MSU, not because of the lesser amount of dead from shooting, but because you rarely suffer morale death. Same goes for marines etc. Units of 5- rarely have problems with morale, units of 15+ often have some way of mitigating it. For units around 10 models the morale shenenigans are nice.

Orcs are all but immune to moral for a couple turns with large units, their trucks and wagons are so good every player will have them, so not only do you have to kill those 1st or wait for them to get out but then shoot up 20man units, with some of their rules too, it wont be till turn 4 they will care, tho I dont see many Orc plyaers playing with insane amount of Orks but with many other units that normally are units of 5-10 anyways.

Also dont forget that you can spend 2 Command points to ignore battleshock tests.

But split fire did make MSU for many armies better, you can have Extra Sargents now, or units like Warriors IMO got better b.c its cheap to spam 5mans with a Blaster.

There are many ways to play and MSU is and always will be a very strong option, especially for us DE players.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:27

Did anyone watch the Miniwargaming batrep between orks and space marines? It made the Orks look much better than I think they are going to be.

Orks fielded 2 squads of 30 boys so 60 boys, 6 Bikers, Pain Boy and Thraka.

Space Marines fielded 2x 5 Scouts, Dread with MM and PF, Vindicator, 3 assault Centurions and Cassius.

Space Marines got tabled without half the Orks lifting a finger. It was a weak list against Orks but it did show that a full strength mob of Orks could wipe out anything in CC with the right buffs.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:33

That SM list looks terribly Balanced IMO, its not any form of TAC at all.

Some units in SM that many dont understand are good yet;

Land Speeders with Heavy Flamers
SM tac squad Spam
Rhinos, just in general now
ML squads

If i played SM the 1st to thing i would take would be a unit of Devastators with ML's, a Land Speeder built for AI (HF's), and if i wanted to be a dick, a Storm Raven.

Dont get me wrong, Orks are amazing now, they have so much good stuff, just saying that match was 1 sided from the start.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:06

My thoughts exactly...as soon as the 1st mob killed the dreadnought in one round of CC the SM player just panicked and started charging his Scouts into the mob lol in fairness it was the chaps 1st game in 8th but still I thought the list he took was never going to stop a horde...like what was the Multi-Melta for?
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 20:41

Dark Elf Dave wrote:
[...]ut still I thought the list he took was never going to stop a horde...like what was the Multi-Melta for?

Maybe he expected killa cans?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Split Fire and Threats   Tue Jun 13 2017, 20:44

I would have thought MM was for a Truck.

But his list isnt even a TAC list, its like he tried to make a low model count list with 0 synergy.

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