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 So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 02:21

Berserkers are extremely cheap your cost is correct.

So Berserkers are a bit better in CC, BUT Harlequins have 4++, Ignore terrain and can charge after advancing, for points i feel Harlequins are just fine in comparative to 3+ and T4.

Incubi surprised me tho, i thought they be a bit better, but looking at the points they ar making me want to take a unit of them now if 5 cost less than 100pts.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 02:36

Yup, plus Bezerkers are M 6. They can not advance and charge.

Harlies movement means they don't need a transport. Combine with some other powers etc and they are looking at a good 22" move before the charge.

Incubi still do a good bit of damage.

And, need to see - is there anything in the rulebook that states a roll of a 1 always fails?

If not.... Turn 3 Incubi with Drazhar = 100% autohit... that makes a difference.

And all of our characters too... wow

Interestingly enough, using the demi klaves, I found that typically getting more attacks was better than stronger ones. I chose the best option for each (was better for more attacks on all but dread equivalent)
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 02:47

Shooting, one of the steps says rolls of 1's always fail, in CC, it says use shooting rules but use WS instead of BS.

So I would assume that is in a round about way saying 1's always fail.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 03:14

ah ....


damn
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:09

I still like the kiss - its just overpriced is the problem. Were it the same cost as the other 2 weapons it would be a real contender.

I also think you need to compare them against a T7, 3+ enemy - the majority of enemy vehicles likely to face - rhinos, dreadnaughts and so on.

Infact, I would go so far as to say the multiwound aspect of the kiss is its greatest feature given how many things have more than 1 wound.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 08:32

S4 and S5 are the same thats another reason why Embraces are better -3 save vs -2 save and its cheaper.

The S5 is better against T5 and T8 only (not counting re-roll) other wise T6/7 Embraces are better.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:07

T6/7 you have to assume multi wounds - and the kiss starts to be very viable - less consistent in average results but ultimately, more damage

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:08

Or just use Shuriken from the Sky/Star/Void Weavers and only melee those as back up.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:22

Shuriken does not kill vehicles in any reliable way...

S6, 3 shots, 0AP (-3 on 6's) at BS3+ vs a T7, 11 wound, 3+ chimera (think that's the correct stats)

90 Shuriken Cannon Shots (30 cannons!)
60 hits
20 wound - (half at -3ap)
10 wounds vs 3+save = 3 wounds
10 wounds vs 6+save = 8 wounds

SO.... on average you need 30 shuriken cannons to drop a Chimera.... yeah, not great...

With the Kiss on 10 Harlies -

40 attacks
27 hits
9 wounds vs 4+ save = 4 or 5 wounds at D3 damage

On average they almost kill the thing and with even a little above average luck they do kill it

With the Caress on 10 Harlies -
40 attacks
27 hits
9 wounds vs 5+ save = 6 wounds

2 rounds of combat for the caress

With the Embrace on 10 Harlies -
40 attacks
27 hits
9 wounds vs 6+ save = 7 or 8 wounds

Its the equal (or there abouts) of the kiss but still needs 2 rounds to finish the target.

This is why I think the kiss has a place against multi wound enemies and vehicle heavy opponents - T6 & T7 is the Harlequins Kiss niche unless its got a 2+ save



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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:28

Or do what i'm doing and bring 6-8 Fusion guns, these are MUCH better than Kiss's are and you can still get your melee attacks in WITH the shooting of the gun, its also cheaper (9 vs 14) you can take a Fusion and Embrace for 1pt difference.

S8, -4ap, D6 wounds, can still shoot in melee.
Kiss has 4 attacks tho, but i also cam fully ignoring the armor save and needs 3+ to wound over 5+ and they get a save still.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:41

You can do that sure - but that's not what you suggested or said above. You referenced shurikens and I showed its not effective.

Fusion pistols are ok - assuming you get close enough they are an all but guaranteed kill

6 shots (max in a weaver)
4 hits
2.6 wounds
-4ap means no save - 9.3 wounds on average, at 3" less range inc the rerolls you will likely kill the target

But again, that's not what the conversation is about...

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:47

Its options....... Shuriken is another option, just b.c i say 1 doesnt mean there isnt other options.

Some tanks you DONT charge so you will have to shoot them.
Edit: Example, Baneblades. lol dont charge those lol!

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:57

Shuriken is (IMO) not a valid method of dealing with any significant multi wound model - anything with 6+ wounds and a 4+ save or better makes shuriken cannons woefully inefficient.

These vehicles/monsters need you to have another option - and Kisses present a solid option. Fusion does the job for sure but its got a hugely limiting range compared to a harlequin charge.

Lets also remember this thread was about combat weapons - not shooting...

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:01

Ive done numbers many.....many Sad times and for me the math never was worth the Kiss, i found it was better to just have a unit of Fusion Pistol guys.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:06

If the kiss were the same price as the other 2 weapons it would be a contender for sure! As it stands, the caress is probably the best choice in terms of versatility and reliability with the odd kiss thrown in.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:09

yeah the kiss would be amazing if it was 4-6pts cheaper.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Thu Jun 15 2017, 19:24

I played a game last night and am quite impressed with harlequins! Star bolas were useful for once. Of the 3 main harlequin weapons though I was most impressed with the embrace. That AP-3 is so useful! I felt the Zephyr glaive was rather lackluster though. I did roll poorly, but it is only S4 now instead of S5 on the charge. They still soaked up a lot of wounds though.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Thu Jun 15 2017, 19:33

The Zephyrglaive was nerf to far IMO, it needed to keep its S5.

Skyweavers IMO are harlequins worst unit, they are more of a gunner with melee for back up support.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:04

How can the Star Bola be any good if it's slightly worse than the shuricannon? Remember, it is a grenade. You can't fire both at once.
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:06

Because I was playing against admech and they used their canticle of being considered in cover. Auto 6 hits against the unit I attacked. Much better than assault 3.
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 11:06

D3, only 1 can shoot in a unit, the average is 4 hits on 2D3, if you have 2 unts of bikes (or 3) within range of them that is.

PS, where does it say Grenades Auto hit? Wanted to re-read it and i cant find that rule.

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 14:46

Hmmm I thought I had read that grenades auto hit the full amount in cover. I know I read it somewhere, I'll look around today and see what I can find.

Or I just worded it poorly. Not auto hit, but it just does the full amount instead of d3 it would be just 3.
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 14:53

That's only in Cities of Death

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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 14:57

Blast... oh well we both played it wrong then. I still like the star bolas. I'll continue to use them. Sorry for the confusion!
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PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Sat Jun 17 2017, 21:08

Since rhe new edition doesn't allow us to caress and haywire vehicles as effective we need fusion pistols. Whats your thoughts on how to use those?
dedicated anti tank troupes? Two or three per troupe?
Ive seen some lists where all troupers have them, but that I think leaves us with too few clowns.
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