HomeDark Eldar WikiDark Eldar ResourcesNull CityFAQUsergroupsRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?

Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Ikol
Wych
avatar

Posts : 564
Join date : 2017-03-20
Location : Perth

PostSubject: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Mon Jun 12 2017, 06:02

So lets review; the Kiss gives S4 AP-1 and D3 damage. 14 Points.
The Caress gives S5 AP-2. 9 Points
The Embrace gives S4 AP-1. 6 Points
The Blade gives Suser AP0. 1 Point

Players and Troupe Masters Start with the blade and can replace it with any of the others.
A Solitaire starts with both a Kiss and Caress.

Personally, I believe the Kiss to be overpriced. D3 Damage is cool, but S4 AP-1 is gonna have a hard time getting past saves. On the plus side, we get to swing it for every attack now rather than formerly where we got one good hit and three kicks.

The Caress has an interesting profile and gives us S5, which is great, and AP-2, which is better! I think the pricing here is on point (do not pardon that pun) and that the damage output will be fairly reliable.

The Embrace is basically a Power Sword with a fixed Strength value. That Strength being 1 higher than the model holding it. Probably priced fairly.

And as for the Blade? It is literally the same as not carrying a weapon. And you have to pay for it. Lolderp, almost as bad as the Stinger Pistol, can someone get the GW editing team a "You Tried!" Award? But there is a separate thread for that complaint, moving on.



My belief is that the Kiss is overpriced for what it brings to the board and unreliable, whilst the Caress and the Embrace are reliable and fair.

But I have the same complaint about all of them (one that seems to be showing up everywhere). Where did the Flavour and Character go? But everyone is suffering under that yolk, and hopefully codices will rectify that.

_________________
This world exists because of the things we have done, forever branching to the decisions we make and twisting to what we do not.

”Woe to our enemies.  We'll tear them apart regardless.” ~Barrywise
Back to top Go down
Count Adhemar
Dark Lord of Granbretan
avatar

Posts : 7221
Join date : 2012-04-26
Location : London

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Mon Jun 12 2017, 14:10

Personally I'm quite glad that I built my troupe with caresses. They seem to be pretty well balanced between cost and effect.

_________________

You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting. In what world could you possibly beat me?
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 790
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Mon Jun 12 2017, 17:32

Troupes in general are just super expensive for what you get IMO.

_________________
8th Ed. Drukhari Codex List Building Guide
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:18

After playing about 10 games with them in 8th so far (Against Deamon, SM, Nids, IG, BA's, Orcs and Eldar), you need a mix of Embraces and Caress.

I've wound from playing and math that having 2 Caress and 3 Embraces is the best option.

Embraces
With re-rolls from Troupe Master, Embraces are always better! and sense i try to keep them within Troupe master range i wanted 3 of these.

Caress
S5 Sometimes that S5 is just to important, so having a couple guys with them i feel is needed.
NOTE* If not playing with a Troupe master just take these only be you wont have re-rolls

Kiss
If you need Multi-wound hunters Bikes are better or a unit of Kiss troupes to do just take (this is specializing at this point, against Nids with Warriors, Ravagers, Shrieks, Venoms and Zoan spam it works great b.c they have 4+ or even a 5+ save more times and with a Kiss thats a 5/6+ save that does D3 damage).


@HERO wrote:
Troupes in general are just super expensive for what you get IMO.

No they are very well balanced, When you play them correctly 90% of all damage to them needs 4+ to hit instead of 3, they always go 1st and kill the unit, they have true hit and run, you can get key shooting units to hit with a -1 against them.

Every player im going against is always extremely frustrated when i play them with harlequins b.c how survival 25 dudes can be, when a Storm Raven cant kill 3 dudes you know your good!

Tho so far IMO what i've seen Nids are the hardest army for them to deal with, Mawlocks and Biovoures are F@#$ing insane!

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points


Last edited by amishprn86 on Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:24; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Cleaned up and spelling)
Back to top Go down
HERO
Wych
avatar

Posts : 790
Join date : 2012-04-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:31

Care of share some bat reps of what kind of armies you're facing? I don't know how T3 1W models can survive even with -1 to wound vs. anything about S3 massed shooting for the most part. Are people using vehicles against you to Rhino-wall or what? Bat reps would help a ton to know what you're facing these days.

_________________
8th Ed. Drukhari Codex List Building Guide
HERO's Gaming Blog
A webway to better gaming
Back to top Go down
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:59

You dont turn 1 or turn 2 charge (I will have some videos going up soon, im editing them now I will post a 1 page report with them after im done).

I also am bad at english so thats why i dont type out bat reps (I have a extreme dyslexicia to type something out that large literally gives me head aches and makes my brain mush im on forums a lot b.c small amounts of reading and writing does help).

Basically over all game turns:

Deployment i've been 1'st about 1/2 my games
Set up outside of there movement + shoot range (I can move 16+6+shoot if i need too)
Literally move and try to out position them with movement and shooting for a turn or 2
When i got some units killed that i wanted to die or tanks popped i get out and charge turn 2 or 3
Meatscape between combats and still move and shoot with starweavers.

The -1 to hit on vehicles/bikes is HUGE
But how do i keep the Troupes alive?
Shadowseers!, -1 to hit cast and -1 to the wound roll.

If they needs 4+ to hit and 4+ to wound with a 4++ it is really easy to stay alive, with Vehicles flying around at the same time it makes it hard for them.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 00:03

This is some math I ran the other day with them. The number of expected wounds.



Note that I only did the re-roll for hits for the Master.

The Troupe is assuming a min squad of 5 all with the same weapon.

The kiss is just the number of wounds before rolling for damage.

I have to say they are quite well balanced. I am rather impressed.
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 00:38

Yes but with the Re-rolls from the Master the Embraces are better than Caress.

Thats why i was saying 2 Caress and 3 Embraces, you also save 9pts per troupe sqaud giving you a Pistol for same cost.

And a Kiss is actually extremely strong against Multi Wound Armor 4+ or 5+ once you hit that 4/5+ save on anything with more than 1 wound the kiss is buy far the best weapon, but those units are a bit more rare.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 01:23

Oh I definitely agree.

The above chart was for non-enhanced (except for the Master). The Kisses can do some serious damage vs multi-wound models

I think for the Master the Caress is slightly better.

On a Troupe squad, the Embrace with Fusion Pistols is just 150 pts per squad and could absolutely wreck face! Chuck in a Master and Seer for support, and damn but these guys look scary...

I am very curious to see how they fare vs Incubi, Scorpions, and Bezerkers
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 01:48

Yep my list is always

5 dudes
2 Caress
3 Embraces
1 Fusion Pistol

I keep Troupe Master and Shadowseer close by Smile

I too and curious points vs wounds against those 3.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 01:56

Gonna run that squad first and then compare the other three squads, not gonna be calculating the pistol as I am just looking at CC

Edit:

This is what I came out with for that squad in damage potential

I feel like my math is off somewhere - either on these or my original calculations

Found the issue with my chart - was doing it per one troupe, not per all 5...

... Edit 2

I have tried several times and I keep screwing up this chart... perhaps tomorrow will fare better


Last edited by Faitherun on Tue Jun 13 2017, 03:15; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 03:13

What? is that 1 attack each? or 4 attacks? Each Troupe has 4 attacks each.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 03:27

So there was no way I could sleep with that unfinished...

Did it for 3 Caresses and 2 Embraces and the other way round



I am still not 100% sure I ran these numbers right, but looks a lot better. Will double check them tomorrow
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 03:51

lol I love you

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
|Meavar
Hekatrix
avatar

Posts : 1041
Join date : 2017-01-26

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:26

What is the B here?
It does not look like a terminator?
D is dreadnought I assume?
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:33

Bike? I know TEQ is Terminator

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:30

Yup. Bike. Assumed toughness 5
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:31

Is that with Re-rolls?

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:32

Yes
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:34

Nice to see the chart, Now idk if I want 2/3 or 3/2 of Caress/Embrace lol.

I know for sure i dont need 5 of one in any unit, i feel 2/3 is a great combo for damage/point value.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:37

I agree. I know those numbers are slightly off.. I worked on it some more last night but passed out doing so. Not a big change though.

I'll compare them tonight to other dedicated cc units. I think they may be one if, if not the best, cc unit in the game. And while their pistols are short range, they are nothing to scoff at either.

I agree through 2-3 split is good.
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:40

There is another CC unit that might be equal to or maybe better, Khorne Berserkers, this is only b.c they get to attack twice.

Just look at there rules, not as good of AP and only 2/3 attacks base.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points


Last edited by amishprn86 on Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:41; edited 1 time in total
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:40

Yup, plan to compare them as well
Back to top Go down
amishprn86
Dracon
avatar

Posts : 3182
Join date : 2014-10-04
Location : Ohio

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:48

They are 2 attacks (champion 3) but the weapons are not that good.

You can have Chain Axe or Chain Sword
Axe is +1s and -1ap
Sword is +1 attack

Always take the Axe, total will be in a 5man, 12 attacks S5 AP-1 and 8 attacks at S4 -2ap Re-rolls


Edit: Champion weapons
Chain Sword
Chain Axe
Lightning Claws
Any Power weapons (Sword, Axe, Maul, Fist) Not staff/lance

Lightning Claws i'd say are the Best, -2ap, re-roll wounds and +1 attack still.

_________________
New to Blogging, just starting https://maddpaint.blogspot.com/

Harlequins 3k+
Dark Eldar 10k+
Tyranids 10k+
SOB 3k+
Painted 4k points
Back to top Go down
Faitherun
Sybarite
avatar

Posts : 269
Join date : 2017-02-13

PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   Wed Jun 14 2017, 02:14

So these are the numbers I am finding now. I like the Sword on bezerkers over the axe.

A few assumptions.

Harlies are in range of a Master, Bezerkers of a Dark Apostate, and WraithBlades an Autarch. I am assuming that Incubi are also on t3 for the +1 to the hit die (although a roll of a 1 is always a miss).... actually looking through the rule book I don't see that as a rule... am I missing it? This could make DE VERY POWERFUL).I tried to run numbers for Banshees and Scorpions, but they need more than 5 man squads to come near the same damage.

Here is what I see with Points for the units as well. I am not sure that the points for the Bezerkers is right.... would love some double checking on that.
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?   

Back to top Go down
 
So, Harlequin Weapons... Thoughts?
Back to top 
Page 1 of 3Go to page : 1, 2, 3  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
THE DARK CITY :: 

AELDARI ALLIES

 :: Craftworld Eldar, Ynnari, Harlequins & Corsairs
-
Jump to: