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 Razorwing vs Ravager

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MHaruspex
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PostSubject: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 05:06

Both the Razorwing and Ravager, outfitted with lances and no other upgrades, have exactly the same points cost. Which would you prefer to run?

On the defensive, both pack Nightshields, T6, and 10 wounds. The Razorwing's Hard to Hit rule and mobility do give it an edge in survivability in terms of raw numbers, though the Ravager will be easier to get a cover save on (though that won't be relevant against the -4AP dedicated anti-tank weapons). The Razorwing is also more difficult to charge.

In terms of weapons, the Ravager packs a third lance while the Razorwing trades it for some anti-infantry/MC punch with its reusable missiles and twin splinter rifle. With split fire being standard, the unfocused weaponry is more an advantage than disadvantage - the versatility is nice, and you don't present a single compartmentalized unit that the opponent can ignore if he's, say, horde infantry and doesn't care about dark lance fire.

With all that said, am I wrong for thinking that there's not much point to taking a Ravager when you could simply take a Razorwing instead, especially considering they start on the board now and you don't have to worry about firing arcs?
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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 07:26

I also can't see the point of ravagers. someone please enlighten us.
EDIT: also, dos are 30 pts, right? if so, then aren't dl ravagers the same points as dissie ravagers?
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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 08:39

Dark Lances are 20 points, a disintegrator Ravager would cost 30 points more than its Dark Lance version.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 09:12

This is interesting as I am undecided on the Ravager. I have been thinking of ways to not take it and the Razorwing Jetfighter I would be more than happy to take.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 09:49

While both the Razorwing and Voidraven are much improved I don't think they'll replace the Ravager completely. Against a T8 3+ vehicle a Ravager will average 3.5 damage, whereas a Razorwing will average 7/3 (~2.33) with it's lances. Whilst the missiles are definitely good especially the necrotoxin and the shatter field, it does suffer against tougher vehicles(Against lower toughness vehicles the shatterfield might help the razorwing out, but then the lance ravager is wounding on 3s so it's hard to say) you also only have two flier slots per detachment, so if you required more anti tank taking a DL Ravager is still probably necessary.
At the moment I have two lists up in the army list section which both plan to run 2 Voidravens and 3 Ravagers, because it gives me around 20 lances in the army including blasters etc and all of them shoot without penalty, whilst the Voidravens can provide really nasty alpha strike potential with their bombs and scythes. I still feel the Ravagers are necessary though because I don't really trust the other anti tank options in the army like dark lance/Blaster Born or Scourges.

The only other thing is that because Razorwings are in the middle between anti tank and anti infantry, the will have to split fire. It doesn't seem like a lot, but split firing will reduce their effectiveness a bit. Though IMO I still think Razorwings are absolutely beastly and should be considered in a lot of lists, but it's not a straight up replacement. It'll come down to what your list needs more; a dedicated anti tank platform or a bit more anti tank mixed with some anti infantry.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 10:26

Well, the downside to the Razorwing trading a Dark Lance for anti-infantry weaponry is that anti-infantry exists basically everywhere else. Unless you specifically upgrade units, usually the default is an anti-infantry weapon.

When comparing directly to our second best vehicle killer, you gotta take the rest of your list into account. Do you have other vehicle counters? If not, the Ravager is probably your better bet. If you're like me and gonna deep-strike Dark Lance Scourge, you're probably fine with the Razorwing.

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 14:52

S7 assualt D6 reroll failed wounds it's terrible against vehicles even though it's only 1 damage and - 1 ap. Granted the Dark lance is slightly better.
Keep in mind to you can shoot your dark lances at one target and the missiles at another.
I'm thinking the razorwing is a solid choice

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 14:59

I think both have their place. Razorwing more as a harassment unit, and the Ravager as an actual killer.

Of course, neither will do much damage by themselves. As always, you need to have multiples of things and overlap between rolls. I see these guys working well together to take down similar targets
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:34

Which is more survivable? Stats are the same.

The Razorwing is -1 to hit but likely to be in line of sight of everything on the table. There is also a restriction on who can assault the Razorwing.

The Ravager has no modifier to hit but can potentially make use of cover.

My guess is that a careful player could keep the Ravager survive longer.
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 15:49

I Think as others have said, the Ravager feels more like a dedicated anti-tank role. If I was to field a Ravager I would most likely find a vantage point on the field and just snipe off vehicles that came in range of the lances. But if you use a Razorwing it's going to be a mix between shooting the dark lances at the vehicles and then shooting the missiles at infantry. My only fear for the Razorwing is that it will be shot down fairly easily due to not being able to hover on the spot.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 19:23

I've been debating this myself actually in the last couple of days.

Keep in mind I'm not looking exclusively at the Razorwing vs. the Ravager, but more of a wide range of in-faction choices as well:

Crimson Hunter with 2x Bright Lances + Pulse Laser and CTM is 188.
Ravager with 3x Dark Lances is 155.
Razorwing with 2x Dark Lances is also 155 as mentioned.
Hemlock Wraithfighter is 211 points.
Once we see Nightwing stats, I bet they'll be competitively priced as well. In fact, they might overshadow the Razorwing completely.

The CW options are slightly more expensive but are also very good.

I think the option for me right now is a mix of both, taking Ravagers and other fighters depending on where you think the gap is in your army setup.

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 20:42

I might be able to add a little perspective, in the game i played over the weekend I fielded 2 Razorwings and a Voidraven in total I lost 1 razorwing turn one but my opponent had to literally shoot everything in his army at it which came to around 50+ bolter shots (heavy bolters included), 3 twin lascannons, 3 dark wing missiles (I think thats what they were called, he was dark angels), a couple of multi-meltas and a vortex Cannon (again don't remember the actual name just that it was mounted on one of his fliers), it took all that to bring down 1 razorwing jet fighter, he did not split fire so nothing else in my army was shot at (and I might be over estimating the bolter shots I just remembered there being a ton of them) but after that my other razorwing didn't really do a whole lot of damage but that was my fault in bad positioning and the Voidraven caused havoc with its bomb and void lances
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 20:50

If you want insane damage flier take the Hemlock Auto its cant be charge stupidness for 200pts Shocked Razz

But on topic...
Our Fliers ware meant to be 2 rolls and anything with multi rolls never does 1 better than the other and dedicated versions will always do better, your paying more for the options.

The Bomber i like more so than the Razorwing (I have 4 Razorings Jets) and i dont think i can honestly justify the Jet anymore personally.

I'm 100% sure i'm never going to play them unless its more fun, im just going to run Ravagers, I dont need AI.

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Last edited by amishprn86 on Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:36; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Mon Jun 12 2017, 21:15

I think I'm going to take 2x Crimson Hunters and let you guys know how they work on. On paper they're absolutely insane with their damage potential. I tried the Hemlock already and I can vouch for their effectiveness, but the CHs might be really good this edition.

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Barrywise
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Tue Jun 13 2017, 08:17

What about visibility of the model itself? The ravager has the ability to hide behind cover much easier than the razor wing
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:08

@Barrywise wrote:
What about visibility of the model itself? The ravager has the ability to hide behind cover much easier than the razor wing

Well that is one of the points I made.

If you have a lot of terrain you could argue everything on the ground just became more survivable due to lack of line of sight and anything in the sky becomes more of a target because its nearly always in line of sight.

If there isnt much terrain then perhaps then the Razorwing Jet is a little more survivable than the Ravager...so its horses for courses.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Tue Jun 13 2017, 10:14

Razorwing can shoot from its tail?

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PostSubject: Re: Razorwing vs Ravager   Tue Jun 13 2017, 10:48

All models can shoot 360 degree now.

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