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 8th DE - what's good?

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:16

No I mean the 0.07 wounds. Remember it is the same as a 7 pt warrior at rapid fire distance.
So yes it is not much. But still the same chance as shooting at a marine. And the things are practically free. So I find they are usually worth the upgrade and if the enemy is immune to morale (often at the start) then I will shoot them at vehicles instead and hope to pling of 1 or 2 wounds. It also means that if a vehicle survives with 1 wound you can often "waste" the RPG shooting at it.
Remember you spend 3 points to do 0.07 wounds. Sure a ravager does much more (around 3.5 I guess without calculating) but it also cost 115 so for a dedicated anti tank you pay roughly 0.03 points per wound, while the RPG is still quite a good alternative at 0.023 compared to a full unit of warriors inc lance shooting at a tank for 0.017 wound per point.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:19

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@|Meavar wrote:
Also and this sounds silly but PGL is a cheap way of getting vehicle wounds if you would have the unit that could carry the PGL anyway. It is nearly as point efficient as a ravager at dealing wounds to vehicles (bit of a bad case since I calculated from a full price ravager or just the upgrade of the PGL under the assumption you would buy the unit anyway)

Could you clarify what you're saying here? The PGL is S1 so will need 6's to wound any vehicle through actual damage. Assuming 3+ to hit and 2 shots (from it's Assault D3) profile and a 3+ save, means you  do 0.07 wounds to a vehicle on average (or 1 wound for every 15 times you fire the weapon).

If you're assuming damage from morale tests from the -1 penalty, vehicles are essentially immune to morale as you only have to take the test in the first place if you've suffered a casualty. I'm not sure if vehicle squadrons even exist anymore but most vehicles will be single models and therefore never have to take a morale test.

Yes, this is correct.

Single models DGAF for the most part. It all comes down to how much damage you inflict on units. This is another reason why I think by now, it's best to break 10-man squads down to 5 MSU as much as possible if given the opportunity.

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Thu Jun 15 2017, 18:34

I like the fact that I can run a nice fun list that is full of models that once I would have been laughed at for taking, and now I can have a viable game in less time, too!
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 02:07

@amishprn86 wrote:
Its just a little more costly than Ravagers and just does as much if not more damage, with -1 to hit, and you have the Void Bomb once a game that will kill 7 out of a 10man squad of SM even in cover.

2D3 shots that does D3 damage with D6 missiles (or D3 with -3ap over -1ap).

Think of it as a Flying Ravager for 20pts more.

Hi, long time DE player (2003ish) and usually I just read feeling little need to post but the 8th ed has me a little excited again..
In any case I see a few mistakes here unless I've missed something big.

- Void mine I think you got it wrong.. it's every other model so even if you rolled all 3+ you can kill 5 out of 10 models in said SM squad.

- Hopefully it's something I've missed but where did you get the 2 wounds on the Wracks?

- This was someone else's comment on Scourges, but they don't have a -1 to hit like say the Venom. Unfortunately.


As for Sourges after a couple games I can definitely say that they are incredibly solid, deployed in a Raider with 4 lances is very effective, to silence them they need to blow the transport and they just come out, lose maybe 1 model and still shoot away.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 04:04

I'm thrilled with the new Hellions. They haven't changed that much- expect for the small-yet-impactful fact that they're no longer considered Bulky. As such, you can fit 5 of them on a Venom, which is convenient as their 18" splinter pod range is the same as the Rapid Fire range of the Splinter Cannons. This gives you a unit that can hit anything within 34 inches (assuming you're willing to close with it) with 22 splinter shots, and present a real scary melee threat. What I expect to do is use the hellions to shoot on turns 1 and 2, and then have them assault turn 3 when they pick up the +1 to hit.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 04:42

I'm also struggling with the interpretation of the void mine. It sounds like, when used against infantry, that it hits "every other" model as in 1/2 the models of the unit, to a max of 10 (which would only be possible against units of 20+ models). The grenade packs from CWE Swooping Hawks, which is as close a rule to void mine as I can find, says that you roll one d6 "for each model in the unit."
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drynwyn
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:00

@Gildaheir wrote:
I'm also struggling with the interpretation of the void mine. It sounds like, when used against infantry, that it hits "every other" model as in 1/2 the models of the unit, to a max of 10 (which would only be possible against units of 20+ models). The grenade packs from CWE Swooping Hawks, which is as close a rule to void mine as I can find, says that you roll one d6 "for each model in the unit."

I believe that in context, this line is meant to refer to "every model other than vehicles or monsters", not "every other" in the sense of 1/2.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:08

Interesting. Definitely didn't read it that way, but that does make sense. I hope that's what it is!
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 06:05

I definitely read it that Way too. I'll buy the german version so maybe I can clarify later.

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 06:38

This is pretty close to the same interpretation issue that some were having with the transports "every other unit" which meant you could take a transport for any unit that could take a transport ... The way the void mine reads is chose a unit the Voidraven flew over, for every monsterous creature or vehicle in that unit roll 3d6, for every other model roll a single D6 up to a max of 10 d6(as in every other model that isn't a monsterous creature or a vehicle, so if you flew over a unit that had 1 tank and 3 soldiers you would roll 6 dice ... 3 for the tank and 1 for each soldier for a total of 6 dice)
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 07:30

But you only pick one unit, so that monsterous creature must be part of the unit...
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 08:33

Maybe they try to plan ahead or are talking about vehicle squadrons like killer cans?

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 10:02

Yes there are many units of Vehicles/MC that are in squads.

Vypers, land Speeders, many walkers, etc..

Also when the Codex's comes out we might see things like in 7th where if you take a Squad you get a small bonus, so we might see more.

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 15:09

The questions I have about the Void Mine are as follows;
Does the "up to 10d6" apply only to the "1d6 for every infantry model" or does it also include the 3d6 for each vehicle or Monstrous Creature.
i.e. If you dropped it on a mythical and thus far unseen unit that consists of 10 Infantry models, 1 Monstrous Creature and a Vehicle, do you roll 10D6 for the infantry, 3d6 for the Monstrous Creature and 3d6 for the vehicle, giving you 16d6 total?
Or do you roll 3d6 for the MC, 3d6 for the V and 4d6 for the infantry, giving you 10d6 total?

And beyond that, how does wound allocation work between MC's, Vehicles and infantry?

Are they considered separate wound pools?  MC, Infantry, Vehicle?  Or just however many 3+s there are in one mortal wound pool to be dished out amongst the targetted unit as the defending player pleases?

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Fri Jun 16 2017, 16:08

I think it's 10 dice maximum. So I'm afraid not 16 dice in your example. ..

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Sun Jun 18 2017, 07:21

Ravagers are good, especially because they can split their firepower between dissies and Dark Lances. I highly recommend taking 2 of one and 1 of the other- with the removal of firing arcs, and everything having split fire, there's no good reason not to. Even if you're taking 2 ravagers, and want 3 dissies and 3 Dark Lances total, split them up- chances are one of them will be more scary to your opponent, and you'll force them to blow up two ravagers instead of one to get all of the more scary thing off the field.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Sun Jun 18 2017, 14:42

I'm only 3 games in, but the new DE seem extremely strong. The combination of insane speed and firepower is really impressive. Sprinkling in some Harlequins and CWE really pushes the faction into scary place. I did play one game as DE purist and still performed well. So far, my MVPs are my Ravagers (one 3x DL and one 3x dissies). Warriors have been really nice with splitfire now a thing. And Raiders being open topped has also been sick. I know they've always been that way, but open topped is exclusively an advantage now, and lots of transports that once had it no longer do. My only disappointment with the faction so far has been Incubi, but I didn't roll well at all. Still, STR 4 is poop on them even if they do chew up armor.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Tue Jun 20 2017, 14:08

@|Meavar wrote:
No I mean the 0.07 wounds. Remember it is the same as a 7 pt warrior at rapid fire distance.
So yes it is not much. But still the same chance as shooting at a marine. And the things are practically free. So I find they are usually worth the upgrade and if the enemy is immune to morale (often at the start) then I will shoot them at vehicles instead and hope to pling of 1 or 2 wounds. It also means that if a vehicle survives with 1 wound you can often "waste" the RPG shooting at it.
Remember you spend 3 points to do 0.07 wounds. Sure a ravager does much more (around 3.5 I guess without calculating) but it also cost 115 so for a dedicated anti tank you pay roughly 0.03 points per wound, while the RPG is still quite a good alternative at 0.023 compared to a full unit of warriors inc lance shooting at a tank for 0.017 wound per point.

Love this math hammer. I hadn't looked at them in this way at all. I wasn't going to take them but they might just burrowed their way into my icey heart

When I first saw razor wing flocks for this edition I immediately thought these could be my new anti tank! But the numbers just aren't quite right
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 15:23

@amishprn86 wrote:
Its just a little more costly than Ravagers and just does as much if not more damage, with -1 to hit, and you have the Void Bomb once a game that will kill 7 out of a 10man squad of SM even in cover.

2D3 shots that does D3 damage with D6 missiles (or D3 with -3ap over -1ap).

Think of it as a Flying Ravager for 20pts more.

Not wanting to knock the Void Raven, it's a solid pick, but I think your enthusiasm for it has stretched the truth a little. Smile

A triple lance Ravager is 155 points (95+(3x20)).
That's for 3 shots with s8 ap-4 dD6 on a mobile and concealable platform.

The vanilla Void Raven is 169 points.
Gives you 2 shots with s9 ap-4 dD6 on a mobile, slightly harder to hit platform.

That's 14 points for 1 less shot but +1s on the two shots you do get. The bomb can be brutal, but it is a 1shot and you could roll badly. Sure, it can also take missiles.. which is cool. But they're also 25 points. So the difference is basically 40 points, not 20.

I think my current favourite is actually the Razorwing. 155 points (same as the ravager) with 2 lances, the twin Rifle and free missiles. So you lose 1 lance shot and gain the twin rifle and D6 shots at 48" s7 ap-1 d1 rerolling wounds. Plus you gain the -1 to being hit and the 5++. I'm not sure the Splinter Cannon upgrade is worth it, but the option's there is you have spare points.
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 15:56

@eris wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Its just a little more costly than Ravagers and just does as much if not more damage, with -1 to hit, and you have the Void Bomb once a game that will kill 7 out of a 10man squad of SM even in cover.

2D3 shots that does D3 damage with D6 missiles (or D3 with -3ap over -1ap).

Think of it as a Flying Ravager for 20pts more.

Not wanting to knock the Void Raven, it's a solid pick, but I think your enthusiasm for it has stretched the truth a little. Smile

A triple lance Ravager is 155 points (95+(3x20)).
That's for 3 shots with s8 ap-4 dD6 on a mobile and concealable platform.

The vanilla Void Raven is 169 points.
Gives you 2 shots with s9 ap-4 dD6 on a mobile, slightly harder to hit platform.

That's 14 points for 1 less shot but +1s on the two shots you do get. The bomb can be brutal, but it is a 1shot and you could roll badly. Sure, it can also take missiles.. which is cool. But they're also 25 points. So the difference is basically 40 points, not 20.

I think my current favourite is actually the Razorwing. 155 points (same as the ravager) with 2 lances, the twin Rifle and free missiles. So you lose 1 lance shot and gain the twin rifle and D6  shots at 48" s7 ap-1 d1 rerolling wounds. Plus you gain the -1 to being hit and the 5++. I'm not sure the Splinter Cannon upgrade is worth it, but the option's there is you have spare points.

I agree that the Razorwing is the favourite for most situations. Especially the option for Disintegrators and Necrotoxin missiles make it very versatile. Not to mention the free Splinter Fire on top of that.

The Voidraven is much more niche, but I think it is worth taking if you know what up are up against. I'll be playing against Necrons soon and the Void Mine should help greatly to completely eliminate a squad of choice before it can get RP rolls.

I don't see any reason to take Void Lances (excels only on stuff like Baneblades or Monoliths), but the Dark Scythes basically give you 4 Blaster shots at 24".

And what I found out was that D3 and D6 literally do the exact same damage against units with Quantum Shielding. And against Quantum Shielded T6/7 4 Blaster Shots are as effective as 9 Disintegrator Shots.

Naturally, this boils down to list tailoring and against horde armies like Guard the Voidraven will be a terrible investment.

Edit: I want to add a couple of more things. First, the Voidmine will completely annihilate an enemy squad in the moral phase. Second, the Voidraven isn't much more expensive than some Scourges with 4 Lances.

I start to like the Voidraven more and more.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:19

@The Strange Dark One wrote:
@eris wrote:
Naturally, this boils down to list tailoring and against horde armies like Guard the Voidraven will be a terrible investment.

So they still haven't fixed the problem of our fighter being a better bomber than our bomber!

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 16:51

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@The Strange Dark One wrote:
Naturally, this boils down to list tailoring and against horde armies like Guard the Voidraven will be a terrible investment.

So they still haven't fixed the problem of our fighter being a better bomber than our bomber!

I guess "problem" is a big subjective when it comes to GW.
But yeah, pretty much.

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 17:20

@eris wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Its just a little more costly than Ravagers and just does as much if not more damage, with -1 to hit, and you have the Void Bomb once a game that will kill 7 out of a 10man squad of SM even in cover.

2D3 shots that does D3 damage with D6 missiles (or D3 with -3ap over -1ap).

Think of it as a Flying Ravager for 20pts more.

Not wanting to knock the Void Raven, it's a solid pick, but I think your enthusiasm for it has stretched the truth a little. Smile

A triple lance Ravager is 155 points (95+(3x20)).
That's for 3 shots with s8 ap-4 dD6 on a mobile and concealable platform.

The vanilla Void Raven is 169 points.
Gives you 2 shots with s9 ap-4 dD6 on a mobile, slightly harder to hit platform.

That's 14 points for 1 less shot but +1s on the two shots you do get. The bomb can be brutal, but it is a 1shot and you could roll badly. Sure, it can also take missiles.. which is cool. But they're also 25 points. So the difference is basically 40 points, not 20.

I think my current favourite is actually the Razorwing. 155 points (same as the ravager) with 2 lances, the twin Rifle and free missiles. So you lose 1 lance shot and gain the twin rifle and D6  shots at 48" s7 ap-1 d1 rerolling wounds. Plus you gain the -1 to being hit and the 5++. I'm not sure the Splinter Cannon upgrade is worth it, but the option's there is you have spare points.

I don't think the Splinter Cannon is worth it, on any platform. It's purely a luxury upgrade because most upgradable options already have a SC-lite equivalent.

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 20:28

My Voidraven has out preform my Jetfighter every game so far.....

I dont take the Lances, i take the scythes imo they are MUCH better.

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PostSubject: Re: 8th DE - what's good?   Wed Jun 21 2017, 21:19

@HERO wrote:
@eris wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
Its just a little more costly than Ravagers and just does as much if not more damage, with -1 to hit, and you have the Void Bomb once a game that will kill 7 out of a 10man squad of SM even in cover.

2D3 shots that does D3 damage with D6 missiles (or D3 with -3ap over -1ap).

Think of it as a Flying Ravager for 20pts more.
...

I don't think the Splinter Cannon is worth it, on any platform.  It's purely a luxury upgrade because most upgradable options already have a SC-lite equivalent.

That has been my experience as well. And honestly, I find Splinter Weapons somewhat lacking in general. The big advantage used to be that we could spam it from afar and excel on targets where other needed a 6 to wound.

Now, most things can be hurt with a 5. Much worse, GEQ can take saves now, reducing effectiveness by 33% (4 wounds instead of 6). And our former most reliable Splinter platform was degraded to a 95pts sponge that needs to be 18" away to be effective.

I still think that Kabalites remain okay, but that is mostly because of their lowered price and improved wargear.

And for 15pts you can get two more Kabalites or one more Scourge and take a Shock Prow. Imo, SCs need a cost reduction or AP-1.

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