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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Coven guns   Sun Jun 11 2017, 09:39

I'm looking at the liquifier, ossefactor and hexrifle here.
Are they worth it and if so, how would you use them?

I was thinking of taking 3 liquifiers on a haemonculus and wrack unit then i thought... that's 39 points, wouldn't 3 more T5 wracks + 6 pts be better Question
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DingK
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Sun Jun 11 2017, 10:38

Except you can't take Wracks per 3 anymore I think? At least not without paying for 5.
Now, if Wracks could put out ranged damage with a standard configuration through pistols, your comparison could get us somewhere. As it is, they can't, so if you want them to really soften up the enemy unit before a charge, put those Liquifiers in there.

I was thinking​ two units of 5, both Acothyst take Liquifiers too. That's 4D6 autohit shots at 8" range out of a fast moving platform.
For laughs, you could even do 4 Grots and a Haemie for 5 Liquifiers...
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Sun Jun 11 2017, 11:39

@DingK wrote:
Except you can't take Wracks per 3 anymore I think? At least not without paying for 5.
Now, if Wracks could put out ranged damage with a standard configuration through pistols, your comparison could get us somewhere. As it is, they can't, so if you want them to really soften up the enemy unit before a charge, put those Liquifiers in there.

I was thinking​ two units of 5, both Acothyst take Liquifiers too. That's 4D6 autohit shots at 8" range out of a fast moving platform.
For laughs, you could even do 4 Grots and a Haemie for 5 Liquifiers...

I was thinking an additional 3 wracks to an existing unit, +6 pts. I know you cant take units of 3 anymore.

So you think the liquifiers are definitely worth it then?  Cool. Thanx for the feed back mate. Smile
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Dread Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Sun Jun 11 2017, 13:11

Liquifiers being S3 makes me question their use. Ossefactor seems more useful imo but still expensive for what it does.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Mon Jun 12 2017, 13:25

Depends a lot on who you will be playing. And the rest of the army.
If they are not in vehicles it helps to protect against chargers. Do you plan to attack as soon as possible (take wracks) wait till later in the game (take guns to shoot from your vehicle).
Will you use them to tie op small elite shooting units, (take the extra wracks). Will you try to eliminate small units (take the guns).


Against tyranids/guard/dark eldar who often have some weak units who you can kill in one turn and then you can overwatch with your wracks on their countercharge. And those shots can help open pathways to bubblewrapped characters.

Against marines etc I think they are less usefull (not as much units killed instantly and fewer reasons to charge you).

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Mon Jun 12 2017, 14:55

We need to remember that we are no longer in 7th. S3 means we are wounding on at least 5+ vs T5 and lower.

Despite this, I still feel that random AP sucks. This could just be my hangups from 7th though.

Hexrifle being able to snipe wounds off of ICs may be fun though. If only they could get put on a cheaper unit.
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Millhouse4570
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:50

Personally i think liquifiers are kind of lackluster for the points. Between the strength of 3 and the assault d6 ap d3 they seem unreliable. I think the ossefactor would be more useful and it gives wracks some much needed range. As for the hexrifle I don't know what changes were made to, except i think it went up slightly points wise. As one of the few coven ranged weapons i would guess it still has a place taking pot shots at charicters and giving a haemie somthing to do while he foot sloggs with some talos and cronos.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:52

Liquifiers were one of the first things I looked at in the new book to see if they had been fixed. My immediate reaction was, shall we say, not positive! 13 points for that piece of crap?!

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Bhaal
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Tue Jun 13 2017, 10:54

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Liquifiers were one of the first things I looked at in the new book to see if they had been fixed. My immediate reaction was, shall we say, not positive! 13 points for that piece of crap?!

My thoughts exactly, when I looked at the profile I couldn't understand why they made it worse than it already was. Now the hits are random, which means good positioning means nothing. AP is now always a positive result for us, but at the expense of losing the AP1 result. On top of that it's still S3. All that for a 2 point reduction in cost, no thanks. Situational use sure, but that's some very specific list tailoring or tossing x13 points in the sea 99% of the time.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:29

I think my first impression was correct... More T5 wracks > expensive, situational guns. Neutral

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:06

@Count Adhemar wrote:
Liquifiers were one of the first things I looked at in the new book to see if they had been fixed. My immediate reaction was, shall we say, not positive! 13 points for that piece of crap?!

Yep, when i saw the rules and then the price, its stupid, now if it was 3pts.... sure i'd take it lol

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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Tue Jun 13 2017, 22:45

Or Str 4 like flamers ... Idk why it has to be str 3 ... Hell I'd love it if it was still Str D6 -ap D3 I had quite a few laughs during fifth with the random str and ap either getting that odd str 1 ap 1 or the Str 6 AP 6 result and the Marine murdering str 6 AP 1 result ... But that was a long time ago ...
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Wed Jun 14 2017, 08:38

@Archon_91 wrote:
Or Str 4 like flamers ... Idk why it has to be str 3 ... Hell I'd love it if it was still Str D6 -ap D3 I had quite a few laughs during fifth with the random str and ap either getting that odd str 1 ap 1 or the Str 6 AP 6 result and the Marine murdering str 6 AP 1 result ... But that was a long time ago ...

Heh yeah the lords of poison can't make a poison 4+ flamer. Rolling Eyes If it was SD6 at least it would have a chance to be scary. As it stands now it continues to be an elaborate practical joke played on the new wrack initiates.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:20

I had also been waiting to see what happened to the L.Gun for 8th. I was planning on using wracks with x2 L.Guns.

My understanding is that most flamers generally have no AP modifier. We have a minimum of -1 up to -3. If you get that -3 AP then its potentially one of the best hand flamers in the game.

So yes it is only S3 which sucks compared to the average S4 but it has the AP modifier.

Lets say you did use two squads of 5 Wracks with a total of 4x L.Guns. You will end up with an average of 14 auto hits. You get to roll for AP 4 times so the chances of getting -3 AP for some of the hits is decent. This means on average most non marine units will have no save against the L.Gun.
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:53

For 13 points (plus the person actually using it) you get a weapon that, on average, kills less than one Marine.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Wed Jun 14 2017, 12:20

Look that in 8th, S3 is greatly enhanced than before. You still wound T5 on 5+, that's why probably
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:13

Wounding on 5+ is still pretty bad odds.
That coupled with :
-the random shots,
-the cost of bringing one ( you have to take a unit of 5. where some of them has no shooting attack at all ),
-the short range, ( that means you will most likely only ever fire it once before becoming tied up in CC or creamed in CC),
-the random AP,
-and availability of better options
makes it pretty unreliable as anything other than a novelty.

It is highly unlikely to make it's points back, and it certainly is NOT going to scare anyone or make them think twice about charging you.
If you like to gamble, it does have the possibility to be OKish if you are rolling hot, but more likely than not it is going to let you down. Then you will give it up, and turn around and desert it.

In an all coven themed list with wracks as only troop option and no warriors or trueborn, I'd probably take it on some units.

Does anyone want to math it out once and for all? I'd love to be wrong, because I really like the fluff behind it.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:26

@Scrz wrote:
Wounding on 5+ is still pretty bad odds.
That coupled with :
-the random shots,
-the cost of bringing one ( you have to take a unit of 5. where some of them has no shooting attack at all ),
-the short range, ( that means you will most likely only ever fire it once before becoming tied up in CC or creamed in CC),
-the random AP,
-and availability of better options
makes it pretty unreliable as anything other than a novelty.

It is highly unlikely to make it's points back, and it certainly is NOT going to scare anyone or make them think twice about charging you.
If you like to gamble, it does have the possibility to be OKish if you are rolling hot, but more likely than not it is going to let you down. Then you will give it up, and turn around and desert it.

In an all coven themed list with wracks as only troop option and no warriors or trueborn, I'd probably take it on some units.

Does anyone want to math it out once and for all? I'd love to be wrong, because I really like the fluff behind it.


I agree, I just don't like any ranged coven weapon.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 12:25

I don't think the Coven units are meant to be strong at ranged combat.

I do aim to take a unit of Wracks especially in a small 1000 pts list. If you want the additional command points then you will be taking x2 HQ so for me it will be a Heam and Archon. The Haem will give the Wracks a +1T buff which makes them pretty hard to kill.

I won't be taking any of these as ranged weapon threats...they are all for close combat.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 14:05

The only gun I'd take in a unit of Wracks is a Hexrifle on the Acothyst.

Just my 2 soulstones worth.

Edit:  I did a lot of work modding my Haemi so that she's sighting down a Hexrifle for the shot, so naturally she'll be bringing one too.

Edit the 2nd: Yay for the only snipers in our army being on the Units that are least known for their ranged capabilities.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 14:32

If a unit of those guys inside a venom gets charged, can they still use the Liquifier for overwatch?
If yes, the gun is worth it in my opinion.

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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 14:36

Nope. Apparently you can no longer fire overwatch from inside a vehicle.

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merse24
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 15:16

Math-hammer on the L-Gun vs MEQ (assuming you roll 6 for # of attacks):

Hits:  6
Avg # of Wounds:  1.98
Successful saves vs -1 AP:  .99      
Successful saves vs -2 AP:  .65      
Successful saves vs -3 AP:  .33      

Dead Marines vs -1 AP:  .99
Dead Marines vs -2 AP:  1.32
Dead Marines vs -3 AP:  1.65


And that is assuming 6 hits, so it will only go down from there.  

This was my first math of this edition, so feel free to QC lol.
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Millhouse4570
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:08

So the ossefactor seems like a worth while investment to me granted i currently the majority of my models are coven unit. This is off the top of my head so i could be mistaken. But its hitting 2/3s of the time wounding 5/6 for infantry (re rolling 1s if with in 6 inchs of a cronos). With ap3 marines are getting saves only on 6s. And if it kills a model ypu get a 50% chance of an addition mortal wound. Now here's the question i have. My buddy seems to think that if said mortal wound kills an additional model that you get to roll for another and so on until a model does not die, you fail the roll or unit has been eliminated. Thats not how i interpreted the weapon but both him and another of our group seem to think thats how it would work. They claim because the mortal wound is caused from the ossefactor, that it would keep on bouncing until it failed or the unit was destroyed. It would be sweet if that was the case but idk if that would fly out side our house rules.
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Millhouse4570
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PostSubject: Re: Coven guns   Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:17

By bouncing i ment killing a model i dont wish to be misleading
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