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Kabalite Warrior
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PostSubject: What is a competitive list in 8e   Sat Jun 10 2017, 14:51

I have seen many list some claiming to be competitive. I want to know what determines a list to be competitive? Is there a way to list build or guidelines to fallow?

   I have a pure DE force with the exception of Yncarne and Visrach. What should I focus on when list building to be competitive?
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Count Adhemar
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Sat Jun 10 2017, 22:22

I think it's probably too early to tell. The game hasn't even been launched officially yet! Once people start getting serious gametime under their belts and we start to see what the meta looks like then we can assess whether a given list is competitive.

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amorrowlyday
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Sat Jun 10 2017, 22:29

I feel like this is a meta-question though: "what constitutes a competitive list?" and am going to respond accordingly.

A competitive list is a list which, either through manipulation of knowledge of the meta or, through strict build choices is able to achieve a 60% average winrate across all average opponents while only requiring a modicum of skill and play experience.

What lists reach that level is addressed by the counts post though: too soon to tell.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Sat Jun 10 2017, 22:51

Got ya! So just keep building and playing until I find what works. I was asking because I am trying to figure out how I want to change up my kabal for 8th.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Mon Jun 12 2017, 00:32

I'm going to make some pretty bold predictions, but I think overall, this edition will be rampant with multi-wound T5+ models that contribute well to battle.  So things like Wraithguard, Nob Bikerz, and Crisis Suits for example.

This is largely because of two huge things that changed the game:
The wound table needing 3s to wound most things, giving you the same wound roll for S6-9 is huge.  needing to wound things on 3s instead of 2s is a big increase in durability.
Next, is the variable damage system being d3/d6 for heavy weapons.  This means that even if they wound, they can stay around longer due to no more ID and random damage.

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ecam
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 06:43

For me this addition looks to be gearing up for heavy weapons and chars with high wound counts. I don't see much for dark eldar haveing high wounds so I see are list may end up being heavy weapons spam, dark lance heat lance. I did a quick list to see what I could fit in and at 2000 wich is what me and my friends play that's got 31 dark Lance and 5 heat lance at the moment. Still needs more work though as is to fragile
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 07:18

So this is the list I am thinking about. I have gone over the 2k points cost as things are generally cheeper now but it's not fully finished as I have not realy seen any of the new rules and still have a lot of questions on how things work. So something's obviously will change.
++ Combined Arms Detachment (Dark Eldar: Codex (2014)) [2274pts] ++

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [10pts]: Lhameans

+ Elites +

Kabalite Trueborn [95pts]
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

Kabalite Trueborn [95pts]
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

Kabalite Trueborn [95pts]
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

Kabalite Trueborn [95pts]
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

Kabalite Trueborn [95pts]
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

Kabalite Trueborn [95pts]
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Kabalite Trueborn
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance
. Trueborn with Heavy Weapon: Dark Lance

+ Troops +

Kabalite Warriors [190pts]
. 9x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Raider: Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors [190pts]
. 9x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Raider: Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors [190pts]
. 9x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Raider: Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors [190pts]
. 9x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Raider: Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks

Kabalite Warriors [190pts]
. 9x Kabalite Warrior
. Kabalite Warrior with heavy weapon (up to 1 for 10 models): Dark Lance
. Raider: Dark Lance, Night Shields, Splinter Racks

+ Fast Attack +

Razorwing Jetfighter [155pts]: 2 Dark Lances, 4x Monoscythe Missile, Night Shields, Twin-linked Splinter Rifle

Razorwing Jetfighter [155pts]: 2 Dark Lances, 4x Monoscythe Missile, Night Shields, Twin-linked Splinter Rifle

Scourges [184pts]
. 5x Scourge
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance
. Scourge with Special / Heavy weapon: Heat lance

+ Heavy Support +

Ravager [125pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

Ravager [125pts]: Dark Lance, Dark Lance, Dark Lance

++ Total: [2274pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
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BlastaRasta
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:00

hey nice list! is battle scribe up and running now? did you have to do anything to get it going?
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:01

@HERO wrote:
I'm going to make some pretty bold predictions, but I think overall, this edition will be rampant with multi-wound T5+ models that contribute well to battle.  So things like Wraithguard, Nob Bikerz, and Crisis Suits for example.

This is largely because of two huge things that changed the game:
The wound table needing 3s to wound most things, giving you the same wound roll for S6-9 is huge.  needing to wound things on 3s instead of 2s is a big increase in durability.
Next, is the variable damage system being d3/d6 for heavy weapons.  This means that even if they wound, they can stay around longer due to no more ID and random damage.

Have you need Nids with Bivores, Mawlocks, Toxicrenes yet? Each of those units are extremely cheap and effective.

Mawlocks just a couple points over 100, 3 Biovores just over 100 and Toxicrene mid 100pts.

Good Toughness, armor and large wounds all able to do Insane damage, Mortal wounds easily.

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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:10

@amishprn86 wrote:
@HERO wrote:
I'm going to make some pretty bold predictions, but I think overall, this edition will be rampant with multi-wound T5+ models that contribute well to battle.  So things like Wraithguard, Nob Bikerz, and Crisis Suits for example.

This is largely because of two huge things that changed the game:
The wound table needing 3s to wound most things, giving you the same wound roll for S6-9 is huge.  needing to wound things on 3s instead of 2s is a big increase in durability.
Next, is the variable damage system being d3/d6 for heavy weapons.  This means that even if they wound, they can stay around longer due to no more ID and random damage.

Have you need Nids with Bivores, Mawlocks, Toxicrenes yet? Each of those units are extremely cheap and effective.

Mawlocks just a couple points over 100, 3 Biovores just over 100 and Toxicrene mid 100pts.

Good Toughness, armor and large wounds all able to do Insane damage, Mortal wounds easily.

Yup, big things, big wound pools. Small 1W models won't cut it unless they have some wizardry to buff them.

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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:15

Or Vehicle spam.... i see it getting nerf but some armies like IG can spam less than 100pt vechicles with high fire. Taurox Primes are like 96pts? WIth something like 28 shots (3+ to hit but al heavy weapons so basically 1/2 the time 4+ to hit).

T6, 10 wounds, 3+ save
Taurox Gatling Cannon: Heavy 20, S4 -0ap
Hot-Shot Volley Gun: Heavy 4, S4, -2ap

In a 1500pt game 10 of these are insane.

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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:34

With regard to IG, I'd expect to see a lot more infantry in this edition. Guardsmen are now just 4pts per model, plasmguns and plasma pistols are 7pts and 5pts, respectively. Company Commanders are a mere 30pts (and are great for filling out HQ requirements in Battalions and such). And lets not forget that the humble lasgun can now hurt a land raider.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 15:29

@ecam wrote:
So this is the list I am thinking about. I have gone over the 2k points cost as things are generally cheeper now but it's not fully finished as I have not realy seen any of the new rules and still have a lot of questions on how things work. So something's obviously will change.
++ Combined Arms Detachment (Dark Eldar: Codex (2014)) [2274pts] ++

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [10pts]: Lhameans

Court of the Archon is now a special rule, not a unit. All former members of the Court are now Elites and cannot be used in the HQ slot.

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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Tue Jun 13 2017, 15:57

@ecam wrote:
So this is the list I am thinking about. I have gone over the 2k points cost as things are generally cheeper now but it's not fully finished as I have not realy seen any of the new rules and still have a lot of questions on how things work. So something's obviously will change.
++ Combined Arms Detachment (Dark Eldar: Codex (2014)) [2274pts] ++

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [10pts]: Lhameans


Created with BattleScribe

These points are all 7th, in 8th, the raider with lance that now costs 60 something is going to be 115.
A Lahmean is now 10, will be 32.
You will not be able to take even close to this list at these points.

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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Wed Jun 14 2017, 04:09

@amishprn86 wrote:
Or Vehicle spam.... i see it getting nerf but some armies like IG can spam less than 100pt vechicles with high fire. Taurox Primes are like 96pts? WIth something like 28 shots (3+ to hit but al heavy weapons so basically 1/2 the time 4+ to hit).

T6, 10 wounds, 3+ save
Taurox Gatling Cannon:  Heavy 20, S4 -0ap
Hot-Shot Volley Gun:   Heavy 4, S4, -2ap

In a 1500pt game 10 of these are insane.

Yes, again, big things = vehicles. They're the same thing now Smile

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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:38

Command points seem strong and good list building may require taking that into account in the new addition. Seems like getting to five command points should be doable without to much effort
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:47

@Count Adhemar wrote:
@ecam wrote:
So this is the list I am thinking about. I have gone over the 2k points cost as things are generally cheeper now but it's not fully finished as I have not realy seen any of the new rules and still have a lot of questions on how things work. So something's obviously will change.
++ Combined Arms Detachment (Dark Eldar: Codex (2014)) [2274pts] ++

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [10pts]: Lhameans

Court of the Archon is now a special rule, not a unit. All former members of the Court are now Elites and cannot be used in the HQ slot.

thats a shame i did not realise that. not had a chance to see much on the new rules and what not. this list realy is a work in progress and when i do get my hands on the codex this weekend at warhammer world i am gona then amend it acordingly sorting out a few of the units and the points cost.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Thu Jun 15 2017, 17:50

@Skulnbonz wrote:
@ecam wrote:
So this is the list I am thinking about. I have gone over the 2k points cost as things are generally cheeper now but it's not fully finished as I have not realy seen any of the new rules and still have a lot of questions on how things work. So something's obviously will change.
++ Combined Arms Detachment (Dark Eldar: Codex (2014)) [2274pts] ++

+ HQ +

Court of the Archon [10pts]: Lhameans


Created with BattleScribe

These points are all 7th, in 8th, the raider with lance that now costs 60 something is going to be 115.
A Lahmean is now 10, will be 32.
You will not be able to take even close to this list at these points.

yes sory maybe i should of been a little clerer that what i had build was in 7th ed points. i dont have much info on what things are going to cost just know units are going to be a lot cheeper so am hopeing the cheepness of the units brings the veichals cost down and sort of balances them out.
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PostSubject: Re: What is a competitive list in 8e   Fri Jun 16 2017, 05:44

Spam lists will reign supreme. This is for the following reasons:

- The more throwaway units you deploy, the more you can deepstrike.

- Objectives are held by number of bases, regardless of what those bases are.

- Buffs stack and are handed out like candy. Units with terrible stats benefit more, proportionally, from the buffs than already decent units.

- Deepstrike denial is mandatory.

- Absolute redundancy ensures your strategy never falls apart.

- Everything can hurt everything. This means there is a "uselessness ceiling" on even terrible units like Razorwing Flocks, Grots, or Brimstone Horrors.

- The sheer psychological effect of having 100+ of something on the board.

- Close combat is inevitable.

- Templates are gone, removing the penalty for bunching up tons of tiny dudes.

- More dudes = less chance for buff characters to get hit.

- Any points your opponent paid for multi-damage or -AP weapons is wasted.

- Voidshield Generators dispense 4++ saves for everybody.

Everyone I've talked to in the competitive circuit has been saying spam lists are going to rule the tables until this gets fixed. There is literally no reason to bother with large models anymore, as they are universally overcosted for their performance compared to an equivalent points value of tiny, disposable models. Competitive tables are going to look downright goofy.

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