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CptMetal
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PostSubject: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:17

I've recently learned that a blast pistol only got a 6 inch Range. Now I don't know if I want to take it anymore. I'm planning on playing a Kabal force with Kabalite Warriors mainly and the range seems a bit too low.

So better take 5 dudes with Blaster and agoniser and Phantasm Grenade Launcher in a Venom or two of those in a Raider to get enough troop choices for a big army and more command points.
That would be 229 points for essentially three units that can be deployed as one.

Your thoughts?
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Dread Serpent
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:42

I would think if you want msu shooting then take Trueborn. I don't think the extra 2 command points is worth taking a subpar unit and an extra HQ.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:44

Personally, my warrior squads will remain the tried and tested 5 models, 1 blaster in a dual cannon venom. I don't see any value in sybarite upgrades

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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:58

I agree with Massaen for the most part. I don't really understand the sudden need for blast pistols. Maybe the grenade launcher or agonizer if there is enough points, but they would be low on my list of priorities for points.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 13:00

I'm also not sold on blast pistol as an upgrade. I think the general idea is that because we might have to get in to combat more often now. If you're keen to split your squads you could load one with the blast pistol and Agoniser and leave the other one standard. That way you get the flexibility with less of a cost
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 14:26

But in those cases: why take a Raider at all?
With two squads in a Raider, you got more Lance shots.

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Mononcule
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 14:34

At only 4pts the agoniser seems worthwhile. Lategame the unit hit on 2+ and can reroll charge distance. For only 4 pts you add some versatility to an already flexible unit.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 19:33

The one thing I'll mention is that the Blast Pistol can fire from a transport while in combat.

So, if you want to charge your Raider into a unit (or a unit charges your Raider) you'll get a shot off with it. Probably not worth it, but I might as well point it out.

Honestly though, I think it could do with either being a few points cheaper of having a range of 9-12". As it is, it seems worse than a Plasma Pistol, which is only 5pts.
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 20:13

They are probably worth taking only on a Succubus/Archon and Hekatrix/Syren to have that additional punch against armoured foes in CC.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 20:37

On an Archon, I'd rather take a Blaster and make him primarily a shooty unit, with assault being a backup.
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Dawnstone
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Sat Jun 10 2017, 21:11

Agreed, the blast pistol seems relegated to Succubus/Syren/Hekatrix. Could be worse at least somebody wants it this edition Razz
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SERAFF
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Tue Jun 13 2017, 13:09

My Succubus finished a Carnifex in CC with the blast pistol. So I could charge another unit same turn. It could be also handy when you are charged by Ork Coptas, which are vehicles now and you can do nothing with poison and agonizers.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Tue Jun 13 2017, 14:39

I see the blast pistol as a counter-charge weapon, for our vehicles. Take 2 5-wyches squads in your raider, make your raider assault to soak the overwatch, get 2 free blast shots, then disembark and assault.

Or, move your raider near the unit to assault, and wait for it to assault your vehicle. You'll get 2 free blast shots.
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Tue Jun 13 2017, 23:12

And the overwatch shots from the raider itself ... From what I've found and lack of finding in the rules ... Vehicles get overwatch now
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Tue Jun 13 2017, 23:30

@Mononcule wrote:
At only 4pts the agoniser seems worthwhile. Lategame the unit hit on 2+ and can reroll charge distance. For only 4 pts you add some versatility to an already flexible unit.

But you have to think "are those 2 attacks what I call flexible?"

Fine, they are 4 points. But I if have to throw my cabalites in CC just for 2 attacks, thanks but no.



Those 4 points still be an Agonizer in a better carrier.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Tue Jun 13 2017, 23:31

@dumpeal wrote:
I see the blast pistol as a counter-charge weapon, for our vehicles. Take 2 5-wyches squads in your raider, make your raider assault to soak the overwatch, get 2 free blast shots, then disembark and assault.

Or, move your raider near the unit to assault, and wait for it to assault your vehicle. You'll get 2 free blast shots.



Nope, no Overwatch for embarked units. Embarked units can shoot only into the shooting phase.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 00:41

@Cerve wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
I see the blast pistol as a counter-charge weapon, for our vehicles. Take 2 5-wyches squads in your raider, make your raider assault to soak the overwatch, get 2 free blast shots, then disembark and assault.

Or, move your raider near the unit to assault, and wait for it to assault your vehicle. You'll get 2 free blast shots.

Nope, no Overwatch for embarked units. Embarked units can shoot only into the shooting phase.

That's rather depressing.

Also, looking again at how pistols work, I find the faction focus to be rather misleading:

"You can even fire Pistol weapons out of the vehicle when it is engaged in close combat!"

See, I'd taken this to mean "You can fire pistols from the Raider in combat." Not "If your Raider charges or is charged, and manages to survive all of that (and, if applicable, the entire enemy turn also), then in your shooting phase you can fire a pistol into the combat."

Not sure why this surprises me, given that everything else they espoused in the DE faction focus was complete nonsense, but oh well.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:38

@The Shredder wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@dumpeal wrote:
I see the blast pistol as a counter-charge weapon, for our vehicles. Take 2 5-wyches squads in your raider, make your raider assault to soak the overwatch, get 2 free blast shots, then disembark and assault.

Or, move your raider near the unit to assault, and wait for it to assault your vehicle. You'll get 2 free blast shots.

Nope, no Overwatch for embarked units. Embarked units can shoot only into the shooting phase.

That's rather depressing.

Also, looking again at how pistols work, I find the faction focus to be rather misleading:

"You can even fire Pistol weapons out of the vehicle when it is engaged in close combat!"

See, I'd taken this to mean "You can fire pistols from the Raider in combat." Not "If your Raider charges or is charged, and manages to survive all of that (and, if applicable, the entire enemy turn also), then in your shooting phase you can fire a pistol into the combat."

Not sure why this surprises me, given that everything else they espoused in the DE faction focus was complete nonsense, but oh well.

An errata will come, probably
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:00

This will be another one of the interesting things about the changes of 8th edition.

In the past I would never have spent points on giving a Sybarite wargear like a Blast Pistol or an Agoniser. I would consider it to have been too many points spent on a standard stat line.

Now in 8th I might just change my mind....

1. Casualty selection means your Sybarite can be the last man standing if you so desire/require. This means the benefit you get from heavy/special weapons will be greater as they can survive longer.

2. Flat rates to hit in CC mean the Sybarite is now as good against standard enemy troops as he/she is against elite troops or enemy characters. The Sybarite will always (without modifiers) be hitting on 3+...this is great.

3. PFP re-rolls to hit in CC

4. Alternating activation in CC. This is where a clever player can get more from the CC fight phase. Having the choice of which units to activate first will often mean you get the chance to use models with CC weapons before they are killed.

So my feelings are that for 4 points (power sword/agoniser) all my squad leaders will get a CC weapon upgrade. Blast Pistols that can't be used in the actual fight phase...10 points might be a bit too expensive but its still very handy to have.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:31

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
This will be another one of the interesting things about the changes of 8th edition.

In the past I would never have spent points on giving a Sybarite wargear like a Blast Pistol or an Agoniser.  I would consider it to have been too many points spent on a standard stat line.

Now in 8th I might just change my mind....

1. Casualty selection means your Sybarite can be the last man standing if you so desire/require.  This means the benefit you get from heavy/special weapons will be greater as they can survive longer.

2. Flat rates to hit in CC mean the Sybarite is now as good against standard enemy troops as he/she is against elite troops or enemy characters.  The Sybarite will always (without modifiers) be hitting on 3+...this is great.

3. PFP re-rolls to hit in CC

4. Alternating activation in CC.  This is where a clever player can get more from the CC fight phase.  Having the choice of which units to activate first will often mean you get the chance to use models with CC weapons before they are killed.

So my feelings are that for 4 points (power sword/agoniser) all my squad leaders will get a CC weapon upgrade.  Blast Pistols that can't be used in the actual fight phase...10 points might be a bit too expensive but its still very handy to have.


Until you realize that your Kabal unit will be completely wiped off before the Siba will strike his poor 2 attacks.

No, it doesn't worth.
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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:42

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
This will be another one of the interesting things about the changes of 8th edition.

In the past I would never have spent points on giving a Sybarite wargear like a Blast Pistol or an Agoniser.  I would consider it to have been too many points spent on a standard stat line.

Now in 8th I might just change my mind....

1. Casualty selection means your Sybarite can be the last man standing if you so desire/require.  This means the benefit you get from heavy/special weapons will be greater as they can survive longer.

This is true. However, I'd much rather have my special weapon guy be the last man standing.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

2. Flat rates to hit in CC mean the Sybarite is now as good against standard enemy troops as he/she is against elite troops or enemy characters.  The Sybarite will always (without modifiers) be hitting on 3+...this is great.

That is indeed nice.

Where it falls down is that the Sybarite has a measly 2 attacks and the Agoniser will fail to wound half the time against any enemy. So even against guardsmen you're only averaging 2/3 of a wound before any saves are taken.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

3. PFP re-rolls to hit in CC

PFP doesn't grant rerolls - it grants +1 to hit. So the Sybarite is now averaging 5/6ths of a wound before saves. Yey, I guess. Neutral

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:

4. Alternating activation in CC.  This is where a clever player can get more from the CC fight phase.  Having the choice of which units to activate first will often mean you get the chance to use models with CC weapons before they are killed.

I don't see how this is an improvement over having high initiative and so going first regardless.

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
So my feelings are that for 4 points (power sword/agoniser) all my squad leaders will get a CC weapon upgrade.  Blast Pistols that can't be used in the actual fight phase...10 points might be a bit too expensive but its still very handy to have.

I thought the same at first, but then I realised that Sybarites don't even get 3 attacks anymore. What's more, with no bonus for charging and with Warriors being even worse in combat overall, charging is looking even less appealing than it was in 7th. Hence, these seem like death-bed attacks.

Personally, unless I have nothing else to spend those points on, I think I'll save the Agonisers for actual melee units.
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 20:17

@Cerve wrote:

Until you realize that your Kabal unit will be completely wiped off before the Siba will strike his poor 2 attacks.

No, it doesn't worth.

Depends on what you got charged by, a daemon prince won't be happy to see your 4 point agoniser on your 10 man squad since he can't possibly kill them all by the time you get to swing.
and I fully expect the consolidation into shooty units will be a major tactic in 8th so you can expect alot of our kabal will be sucked into combat to prevent them from shooting even though they weren't charged.

I think the 4 points is going to be worth it every time.

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The Shredder
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 20:27

@Seshiru wrote:

Depends on what you got charged by, a daemon prince won't be happy to see your 4 point agoniser on your 10 man squad since he can't possibly kill them all by the time you get to swing.

Honestly, I doubt he'll be particularly concerned. Maybe he'll lose a wound from it, but the odds aren't in your favour.

@Seshiru wrote:

and I fully expect the consolidation into shooty units will be a major tactic in 8th so you can expect alot of our kabal will be sucked into combat to prevent them from shooting even though they weren't charged.

I accept your premise but disagree with your conclusion.

If anything, we seem like one of the best armies to mitigate the consolidation thing. Our units are very mobile (so we can spread out easily and are almost impossible to corner), and many will be in transports anyway.

The thing is, even if one of my units does get consolidated into, I'd much rather just fall back and shoot the enemy with my other units. Otherwise, not only am I relying on a measly 2 agoniser attacks to kill him, I'm also giving him a free combat phase in my turn.
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krayd
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Wed Jun 14 2017, 21:13

It's basically 3rd edition 'hidden powerfist' rules - back in 3rd, I put agonizers in all raider-mounted warrior squads for this reason. Granted, back then, agonizers ignored all armor saves, and still were able to glance vehicles (regardless of AV) on 6's.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: blast pistol Range    Thu Jun 15 2017, 08:29

Shredder....

I did say if desired/required...I didn't suggest you always had the Sybarite as the last man standing. I would suggest if you found yourself outnumbered in CC then you may require the Sybarite stay alive to do as much damage as you can before the unit gets wiped out.
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