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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:12

@Kantalla wrote:
@Massaen wrote:

So long as the pile in does move you ever so much closer while scooting alongside its legal.

I have the flu and my head is foggy... bound to get one wrong every now and again! Wink
The charge rules seem a bit loose to me.

The other oddball situation that occurs to me is imagine the enemy in a line and your unit near the middle of that line. If you get a good charge roll you could move a model or two to the outside edge of the end model and pile the rest of your models beyond that point. The enemy pile in could leave them with only 1 or 2 models able to fight, despite the fact you could have reached base contact with all of them.

Yeah, there are several seeming holes in the rules like you have pointed out due to loose wording. You might have to set that up in pictures for me to 100% understand it but I THINK I am with you... Razz

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:15

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Sorry but why the Raider simply doesn't fall back?

You cant disembark after falling back, or in fact after any movement.

So I need to stay there and dying?

C'mon, of course you will fall back. That situation will never happen.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:17

The vehicle can fall back and still advance as well. The guys inside just cant get out or shoot that turn sadly, but it beats losing the unit Smile

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:01

@Cerve wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Sorry but why the Raider simply doesn't fall back?

You cant disembark after falling back, or in fact after any movement.

So I need to stay there and dying?

C'mon, of course you will fall back. That situation will never happen.

The whole point of this thread was to determine how to get your models out of the transport and into combat though. Falling back stops you from doing this.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:01

How frustrating that the main issues with the new cc phase are mainly around the pile in move which really shouldn't be allowed to effect the game as much as this.

Slightly off topic but on topic...

From the batreps I have watched so far I got the impression they are playing it wrong. My understanding was that you couldn't come within 1" of an enemy unit that you didn't charge? Is this correct?

My initial thoughts were that this rule applied to the whole unit charging? But it seems it applies to just the first model charging...

Imagine 3 squads of 5 marines all lined up base to base. You charge 10 models into the middle squad. They can overwatch you but you will end up with models within 1" of the flanking squads. What does this mean? Is it an illegal charge? Can they also overwatch you? Or do you simply charge one model into the centre and then use the pile in to bring the other units into the combat?
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:04

@Kantalla Your last pic still doesn't look legal to me. Are the middle 3 models all completely within 3" of the Raider? They look quite a bit further away to me. Also, the Marines are on 25mm bases. Even if this method does work, it's dependant on them being in a nice straight line, being on small bases and your models being on small bases and also only being in a squad of 5. So many restrictions.

I have to thank you for the pics though, excellent work Smile
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:08

Doesnt have to be "Fully" it just says within 3"

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:20

@Hellstrom wrote:
@Cerve wrote:
@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
Sorry but why the Raider simply doesn't fall back?

You cant disembark after falling back, or in fact after any movement.

So I need to stay there and dying?

C'mon, of course you will fall back. That situation will never happen.

The whole point of this thread was to determine how to get your models out of the transport and into combat though.  Falling back stops you from doing this.


So the point of the thread is useless. In that example it shows how to surround and kill a Raider. But he is considering that the Raider itself will pile in which is totally unreal.
If we have to talk about examples, we had to choose real examples. Find a way to assault doesn't mean "die trying it". Fall back and choose the right opportunity to do it is a key. Sometimes you don't have to assault at all, if that means lost your unit without engage.

And of course, you will NEVER END your movement at 10" by the enemy unit! Why do you have to do that? You gain a 3"+movement+assault (reroll that after the 2nd turn". And you need to end your movement at 10" by the enemy? Why? You have 11" just for disembark+move.


And why you have to run a charge only with 1 transport? Or 1 unit? You can cover your Raider with Hellions, Reavers or just other transports. In fact you had to do this.
And why in that example doesn't position his raider by the flank? It will get the surrounding maneuver way difficult for the marine player.


There's so many tricks to consider Wink
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:25

Can a unit embarked in the Raider overwatch if the Raider is charged?
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:48

@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Can a unit embarked in the Raider overwatch if the Raider is charged?

Nope, an embarked unit can shoot only in his shooting phase (rules of the Raider).
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 07:52

@Cerve wrote:
@Dark Elf Dave wrote:
Can a unit embarked in the Raider overwatch if the Raider is charged?

Nope, an embarked unit can shoot only in his shooting phase (rules of the Raider).

Such a shame Sad
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:10

Quote :
And of course, you will NEVER END your movement at 10" by the enemy unit! Why do you have to do that? You gain a 3"+movement+assault (reroll that after the 2nd turn". And you need to end your movement at 10" by the enemy? Why? You have 11" just for disembark+move.

Average charge distance is 7. So its 3 disembark + 7 move + ~7 charge. 17 inches. If you stay at say 12 inches from enemy, he simply move away and is now at least 16 inches. In case of marines - 18 inches. So now its more then average roll.

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:24

@Azdrubael wrote:
Quote :
And of course, you will NEVER END your movement at 10" by the enemy unit! Why do you have to do that? You gain a 3"+movement+assault (reroll that after the 2nd turn". And you need to end your movement at 10" by the enemy? Why? You have 11" just for disembark+move.

Average charge distance is 7. So its 3 disembark + 7 move + ~7 charge. 17 inches. If you stay at say 12 inches from enemy, he simply move away and is now at least 16 inches. In case of marines - 18 inches. So now its more then average roll.

Don't forget that we will have the reroll after the 2nd turn. And by the way, I will repeat the thing the next turn.

Is way better if my enemy falls back than lost my unit for that.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:34

Average rolls are a terrible way to go about a charge too, if you fail you have just suicided at least 100 points, probably more. Toughness 3 with no save doesn't last long.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:40

@Hellstrom wrote:
Average rolls are a terrible way to go about a charge too, if you fail you have just suicided at least 100 points, probably more.  Toughness 3 with no save doesn't last long.


Oh well, I guess I will not try the charge Wink

I said that if my enemy fall back, I will follow him....inside my transport. No need to disembark and try a difficult charge.
And he can't fall back forever.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:05

@Hellstrom wrote:
Average rolls are a terrible way to go about a charge too, if you fail you have just suicided at least 100 points, probably more.  Toughness 3 with no save doesn't last long.

I think if you are dropping your unit down in the middle of the table with no cover or LOS blocking and then banking on the charge into combat saving your unit then you are pretty much sacrificing that squad either way.

By all means correct me if am wrong but I always thought DE were at their best when used to precision and the tactic I described above sounds a bit too hung ho for DE.

If you use turn one to shoot at and weaken the target, and for good positioning, then you give yourself a great chance of making the charge on turn 2.  As mentioned earlier we have a 3" disembark and a 7" move (8" for Wyches) so lets assume a 10" move from the Hull of the Raider.  On turn 2 we can re-roll our charge distance...couple this with the ability to use a command point to re-roll one of the two dice and I think you can almost guarantee a successful charge.

I would actually be inclined to play a risky strategy against slower armies and position my Raider just within their charge range. 17" might even be enough to tempt them into charging...better yet they may choose to advance and fire assault weapons at the Raider! Is the Melta gun still assault? They will be keen to be as close as possible. If they advance then we get the charge off easy!


Last edited by Dark Elf Dave on Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:12; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:09

Since we have re-roll charge range depending starting turn 2, getting a 7+ charge is highly probable.

@Dark Elf Dave it does appear that the restriction of stopping 1" away is only in the actual movement phase and I haven't seen anything about this restriction in the consolidation movement (quite the opposite in fact) but I don't have the book I'm been killing my eyes trying to read the aweful internet scans of the leaks.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:52

@Seshiru wrote:
Since we have re-roll charge range depending starting turn 2, getting a 7+ charge is highly probable.

Was going to say this! Turn 2 is re-roll!

If you are scared to charge 7" with re-roll Maybe you shouldnt be playing melee at all then.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 11:56

@Seshiru wrote:
Since we have re-roll charge range depending starting turn 2, getting a 7+ charge is highly probable.

@Dark Elf Dave it does appear that the restriction of stopping 1" away is only in the actual movement phase and I haven't seen anything about this restriction in the consolidation movement (quite the opposite in fact) but I don't have the book I'm been killing my eyes trying to read the aweful internet scans of the leaks.

I was thinking specifically in the charge phase it says you can't come within 1" of a unit you didn't charge. This would mean that if you wanted to charge a unit that was in close proximity to the target unit then you would have to charge them both and suffer the overwatch of both. So this is not about where you end up in relation to the target unit but more where you end up in relation to other enemy units near by.

I also thought it meant that you couldnt pass within an inch of another unit, meaning you couldnt leap frog one squad to get to another...but I am watching batreps where people are jumping their characters right into the middle of a congested combat.
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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 12:33

It does say that for the charge phase but then here is a quote for the fight phase:

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch)."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/02/new-warhammer-40000-fight-phase-may2gw-homepage-post-4/

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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 12:34

@Seshiru wrote:
It does say that for the charge phase but then here is a quote for the fight phase:

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch)."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/02/new-warhammer-40000-fight-phase-may2gw-homepage-post-4/


I don't get it
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 12:50

@Cerve wrote:
@Seshiru wrote:
It does say that for the charge phase but then here is a quote for the fight phase:

"Units that activate gain a free 3″ move towards the closest enemy. This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch)."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/02/new-warhammer-40000-fight-phase-may2gw-homepage-post-4/


I don't get it

Essentially you pick one or more target units to charge and they get to overwatch. You then roll your charge distance and have to get within 1" of the target unit(s) but cannot get within 1" of any other enemy unit.

You then get an optional pile in move (3") which must end closer to the nearest enemy model. You cannot attack models that were not in your target units but you can get within 1" of them, which means they are then involved in the combat and can fight back but cannot shoot next turn.

Hope that clears things up.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 13:53

Sounds like it may be really useful for pulling in tanks that don't hit very hard

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 16:06

So conventional tanks can´t fall back and shoot after that? Nice
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 16:53

@Hellstrom wrote:
@Kantalla Your last pic still doesn't look legal to me.  Are the middle 3 models all completely within 3" of the Raider?  They look quite a bit further away to me.  Also, the Marines are on 25mm bases.  Even if this method does work, it's dependant on them being in a nice straight line, being on small bases and your models being on small bases and also only being in a squad of 5.  So many restrictions.

I have to thank you for the pics though, excellent work Smile
It does look a bit suspicious in the photo, but the middle 3 models were all completely within 3".

Larger bases would be an issue either for the enemy, although I don't see many squads of 10 on 40 mm bases, or for us, such as Grotesques.

I had the enemy set up just under 1" from the Raider. They didn't need to be in a line as such, and I only needed to be able to hit base contact with two of them to get my six models out. When I used a Raider with a prow on it, I could get six models out against the model sitting on the end of the prow.

10 man squads are a problem. Another benefit to 2 × 5 man squads perhaps.

Perhaps we need to thin out the unit that could do the surrounding with some shooting, but ultimately, all this is showing that it can be difficult to disembark, which is a bit crazy, and I don't imagine is intended

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