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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 09:14

A good shot with a Heat Lance will kill a character so Scourge or Bikes can be equipped nicely for killing characters.

CC only then Incubi but you might need to pay the tax for a transport unless they share a ride in a raider with 5 Trueborn perhaps.

Mandrakes sound awesome with potential mortal wounds...10 shots with 6's becoming mortal wounds is very good for the points.
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 11:56

I have done some more reading through the details of the charge and fight phase, and I think you should be able to disembark in almost all cases:

If you go close to a squad of 10 Marines with your Raider, it is likely they can charge your Raider
They can charge in such a way that their models are just within 1"
They can then pile in and consolidate spreading out around the vehicle with the Marines just within 1" of the Raider
If they do that sensibly then they can be spread out right around the vehicle
(Should they destroy the Raider you might lose many of the passengers)

You activate the Raider during the Fight Phase
You pile in so that one side is in base contact with the Marines
Because the base width of most infantry are 1" diameter there is a 1" buffer beyond the Marines you moved into base contact with that is still within 3" of the Raider

In your turn, you can disembark into the space beyond the Marines you moved into base contact with, and should be able to disembark a whole 10 man unit if required.

Hopefully that is easy enough to follow. If not I can take some photos tomorrow to explain the concept.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:26

You don't actually have to stop 1" away. Anything UP TO 1" away can fight, but you can get as close as you want, so there won't be the room you think there will be. Also, when you disembark, you must be at least 1" away from an enemy model. Nice planning, but I'm afraid it won't work in practice.

To all you guys thinking you can use Mandrakes or Jetbikes to kill Characters ... This will only work if they aren't bubble wrapped by any other units, which if you are playing against anyone with any skill at all will be the case.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 12:39

Most armies i've seen dont fully bubble wrap, other than Nids and Orcs.

IDK.. I personally havent had any troubles getting into Melee, but i also dont try to right away, i play movement/shooting games fro the 1st 1-3 turns.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 15:41

I think you remove the raider first and then place the guys, so it will actually be incredible hard to not have enough room to place you models.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 15:44

Nope, you must remove the guys 1st.

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Seshiru
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 15:56

You are correct, well something to keep in mind

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 21:11

@Hellstrom sure they can set up a perfect ring 1" away from you. However, then you get to pile in and put one side of the Raider on base contact with them. Once you do that there is space to deploy within 3" of the Raider and outside 1" of the enemy.

Will post some photos to demonstrate tonight.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 21:26

He is saying you "dont" need to be BTB anymore, you just need to be "within 1 inch" now, so your opponent could stay at max distance within the 1" and 1" from each other model to full be around your Raider.

Pile in is also optional now "You may pile in 3"

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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 22:35

Yes they can stay at 1"away after pile in and consolidate. As the charger they do that first. Then the Drukhari player gets to activate and can pile in the Raider to mess up the perfect surround set up

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 22:43

Gonna need pics I'm afraid, I'm sorry, I still don't really get it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Tue Jun 13 2017, 22:51

@Kantalla wrote:
Yes they can stay at 1"away after pile in and consolidate. As the charger they do that first. Then the Drukhari player gets to activate and can pile in the Raider to mess up the perfect surround set up
They can pick 2 models (one on front and one near rear) to be btb so you can pile in and still keep 8 models 1" away.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 06:38

OK - allow me to attempt to demonstrate using an in production Ravager (more convenient than a real Raider on a stand for photography here) and some Noise Marines:

Step 1: Raider moves toward the Marines, stopping just over 10" away


Step 2: Noise Marines move 6" toward the Raider - they roll 8" for their charge


Step 3: Noise Marine charge move, carefully staying just under 1" from the Raider


Step 4: Noise Marine pile in move - the Raider is now almost surrounded


Step 5A: If the Raider was destroyed at this step it is difficult to get anyone out - without checking in detail, maybe three survivors only


Step 5B: If the Raider was not destroyed, the Noise Marines consolidate to fully surround the Raider


Step 6: The Raider has its turn to activate, and piles in to the Noise Marines, but fails to kill any


Step 7: In the Drukhari turn, the passengers can disembark within 3" of the Raider and not within 1" of the Noise Marines like this


I see amishprn86's comment about moving two models into base contact to pin the Raider in place. That could make this approach more difficult. With the Shock Prow the spacing is slightly easier than in my photos, but you might not be able to get a full squad out if they position really carefully.

Edit - testing with a pinning model front back back, I was able to get 6 models out legally. There are risks of losing models with larger squads if you get surrounded.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 08:39

You could also retract that bridge from Raider belly and measure from it. I dont believe there is anything in the rules to disallow it. Also for all intents and purposes Shock Prow is a part of the vehicle, and it is pretty long thing. Measuring 3" from it will allow to place 10 models.

If its a double squad - it is easier. As you now must place only 5 in coherency. Then its a guaranteed charge with no overwatch.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:11

Your step 4 is not correct as the pile in move must end closer to the nearest enemy model - you cant use it to scoot along side the raider - if you pile in it has to move in

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:17

Nope its says "you may pile in" and you can pile in, in any direction as well.

http://i.imgur.com/05ZNFM1.jpg < Pic of proof

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:28

It says...

You may move each model in the unit up to 3" - this move can be in any direction SO LONG AS THE MODEL ENDS THE MOVE CLOSER TO THE NEAREST ENEMY MODEL

You have to use it to move closer...

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:29

Closer by a 1MM, but i can still move Left or right. Twisted Evil

Also its still optional.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:50

@Kantalla wrote:
OK - allow me to attempt to demonstrate using an in production Ravager (more convenient than a real Raider on a stand for photography here) and some Noise Marines:

Step 1: Raider moves toward the Marines, stopping just over 10" away


Step 2: Noise Marines move 6" toward the Raider - they roll 8" for their charge


Step 3: Noise Marine charge move, carefully staying just under 1" from the Raider


Step 4: Noise Marine pile in move - the Raider is now almost surrounded


Step 5A: If the Raider was destroyed at this step it is difficult to get anyone out - without checking in detail, maybe three survivors only


Step 5B: If the Raider was not destroyed, the Noise Marines consolidate to fully surround the Raider


Step 6: The Raider has its turn to activate, and piles in to the Noise Marines, but fails to kill any


Step 7: In the Drukhari turn, the passengers can disembark within 3" of the Raider and not within 1" of the Noise Marines like this


I see amishprn86's comment about moving two models into base contact to pin the Raider in place. That could make this approach more difficult. With the Shock Prow the spacing is slightly easier than in my photos, but you might not be able to get a full squad out if they position really carefully.

Edit - testing with a pinning model front back back, I was able to get 6 models out legally. There are risks of losing models with larger squads if you get surrounded.

Sorry but why the Raider simply doesn't fall back?
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:51

Quote :
Sorry but why the Raider simply doesn't fall back?

You cant disembark after falling back, or in fact after any movement.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 09:58

@Massaen wrote:
Your step 4 is not correct as the pile in move must end closer to the nearest enemy model - you cant use it to scoot along side the raider - if you pile in it has to move in
Normally I think you are spot on with your rules calls, but I disagree here.

In this case it only asks for closer, it doesn't say anything about moving to base contact if you can, or shortest route, or any of the wording in 7th edition that would prevent a technically in combat, but actually skirting around it like I have shown above.

@Azdrubael wrote:
You could also retract that bridge from Raider belly and measure from it. I dont believe there is anything in the rules to disallow it. Also for all intents and purposes Shock Prow is a part of the vehicle, and it is pretty long thing. Measuring 3" from it will allow to place 10 models.

If its a double squad - it is easier. As you now must place only 5 in coherency. Then its a guaranteed charge with no overwatch.
I don't think the rules allow you to move parts of your model, so doing so for game advantage seems wrong to me. I found I could get 6 models out with enemy on the tip of the shock prow. If you can get out then double ones are still more than twice what you need to reach combat!

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Last edited by Kantalla on Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:03; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:00

@Kantalla wrote:
@Massaen wrote:
Your step 4 is not correct as the pile in move must end closer to the nearest enemy model - you cant use it to scoot along side the raider - if you pile in it has to move in
Normally I think you are spot on with your rules calls, but I disagree here.

In this case it only asks for closer, it doesn't say anything about moving to base contact if you can, or shortest route, or any of the wording in 7th edition that would prevent a technically in combat, but actually skirting around it like I have shown above.

That's true - and as soon as I thought about it further I can see that the clause about it being the shortest route is whats missing to make my reading correct.

So long as the pile in does move you ever so much closer while scooting alongside its legal.

I have the flu and my head is foggy... bound to get one wrong every now and again! Wink

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:06

Quote :
I don't think the rules allow you to move parts of your model, so doing so for game advantage seems wrong to me.
I meant, you can model it that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:09

@Massaen wrote:

So long as the pile in does move you ever so much closer while scooting alongside its legal.

I have the flu and my head is foggy... bound to get one wrong every now and again! Wink
The charge rules seem a bit loose to me.

The other oddball situation that occurs to me is imagine the enemy in a line and your unit near the middle of that line. If you get a good charge roll you could move a model or two to the outside edge of the end model and pile the rest of your models beyond that point. The enemy pile in could leave them with only 1 or 2 models able to fight, despite the fact you could have reached base contact with all of them.

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Wed Jun 14 2017, 10:10

Yeah, it adds alot more death to charges/cc now.

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