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 Actually getting our troops into combat

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 11:22

This is discussing Wyches, Wracks, Grotesques and Incubi.

So I'm a few games into 8th now. People are getting used to it and have basically figured out that they can just walk away from me before I get into combat.

Raider stops at 10" from target. Hopes it survives the shooting storm that comes at it.

Now either, the target unit just moves towards the raider and assaults it, then with the 3" pile in, easily surrounds it, meaning I have to move away next turn and am back to where I started off.

Alternatively, the target unit just moves some (6-8") away from me and then I'm out of assault range again .........

The only way I can see this being resolved is by chucking Reavers or Hellions into the unit to stop them from just running, but this is crap. Extremely expensive, difficult and risky way of getting some troops (that aren't that great anyway) into combat.

I'm feeling like we are back to a shooty list option only. Again.
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Jimsolo
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:40

Maybe use a thin screen of Reavers/Hellions so you don't get surrounded?
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Logan Frost
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:52

Bring 2 raiders side by side, 2" apart, if the enemy charges them he can't surround both.
If you are 10" from the enemy and the unit falls back 8" disembark 3", move 8/7" you are within 7/8", charge 6/7" rerollable.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:56

If he retreats, just charge with the vehicles. He can't retreat forever.
But that is purely speculation

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mynamelegend
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 19:02

How about running two or three transports up with a one-inch gap between them? Enemy can't get inside the gap since their 28mm bases can't fit, and the much larger combined footprint is vastly harder to completely surround with a pile-in. If either transport can disembark models it can do that, fall back, then the other one's passengers disembark in the first transport's footprint.

You can also use a cheap unit of hellions, running right behind the vehicles to provide some rear-end bubbling.

What may also help with enemies retreating to 16-18'' away is to run wyches/bloodbrides as your primary charging unit. With the +2'' combat drug they can move 10'', combine with a 3'' disembark and average 7+1 charge range and you've got a 21'' average threat radius. Even without the +2'' you've got a more than 50% chance to make it 18'' forward with your wyches when they disembark.

Edit: Basically just do what Logan Frost suggested. That'll show me to be slow on the trigger.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 20:02

Ok well 1st a couple questions for you

1) What armies are you fighting against? That is doing that
2) Do you have any other units of threat near buy? Or you just have the 1 or 2 raiders close?
3) Do you have other support unis near? Bikes? Beasts? etc..

If you are just trying to Melee and only Melee and you are using Wychs take a unit of 10 with a 2" movement as a faster tarpit unit, with some Beasts packs close buy.

Other have suggested as well taking 2 Raider and keeping them close enough they cant surround either of them.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 23:21

Necrons and Marines. I'll try as you guys suggest, but hoping for an 8" charge, even with a reroll sounds pretty terrible to me. As we know, if it fails, the entire unit dies to literally any shooting that is on the table at all.
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Faitherun
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 23:36

Ok... I must admit - I am a little confused on this

@Hellstrom wrote:

Raider stops at 10" from target.

Why? Why would you not move less than that if you can't make it to CC right off the bat? If you are trying to get your guys into CC, why move up that far right away? Move to cover. Or, if you know you can't get up into CC, then advance and move so the next turn you can get behind your target unit.

Our infantry is very rarely going to make a first turn charge. 2nd or 3rd. I see this more of turn 1: we move into good position. Turn 2, disembark, then use the raider to tie up the unit we want to hit and absorb Over watch. Hopefully that unit can get into CC then, if not they hit turn 3.

I think movement is going to (again) play a large part in DE winning games.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 23:37

He was scared it getting charge and fully covered all round (I assumed).

Tho I agree just get it as close as you can, if you have 2 Raiders side by side it is impossible to full cover a Raider in melee.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Fri Jun 09 2017, 23:57

Correct. If I put a single Raider anywhere near pretty much anything at all, it would just get charged, surrounded and then I can't do anything. I guess using more than one at a time is the only way to do it.
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Sat Jun 10 2017, 08:55

Park it sideways? Might make it harder to surround depending on model placement, not sure about what to do about them retreating other than to use more units to help pin them in somehow
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Sat Jun 10 2017, 11:33

Tried 2 Raiders with 1/2" gap last night. 10 Marines moved, assaulted and surrounded them both ......................... Fail again.
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Trystis
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Sat Jun 10 2017, 11:39

Shouldn't it be a 2" gap?
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:14

Maybe put some other unit behind them? If they charge the Raider, the grotesques behind them get out of their Raider and beat the crap out of the Marines?

That discussion makes me rethink all my plans to incorporate Melee in my army
:/

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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:49

10 marines moved and charged the raiders? Both of them surrounded? Must have been a heck of a charge roll!

Deploy them in an arrow head side by side with the noses touching. This will guarantee that they cant surround you and you can disembark in your own turn. You don't even risk anything with blast markers and flame templates gone!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Sat Jun 10 2017, 19:04

If you keep your Raiders 4" apart (5" for 10mans in them) then it is mathematically impossible, for a 10man units to multi charge both within an 1'', a 12" charge and not give you enough room for you to get out.

If you keep them 3" apart so they can not charge 1 unit and kill the one, they MUST get a 11" charge.

If you kill just 2 then they can not cover you.


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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 11:04

I feel the point here, is that using 600 points worth of wanky assault units is a risk against a 10 man Marine squad. It's not reliable and it's risky. Why bother?
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Kantalla
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 12:40

Having tested this out with some models, it takes 10 infantry sized models to surround a Raider. They couldn't possibly surround two with 10 models. Even if they could, one Raider could fall back, and the models from the other could disembark.

How to people interpret within 1" or within 3" in this context? Does it mean wholly within, or partially within?

If within means wholly within then models with larger bases can't fight in the fight phase, so I presume that is silly. If within means partially within then it is easy to disembark a squad within 3" of the Raider while staying outside of 1" of the enemy.

If within means partially for a unit to fight in the fight phase, but wholly within for disembarking then it is possible, but difficult to place 10 models in such a way to prevent disembarking. They need to be in a ring just under 1" away from the Raider and carefully covering all of the pointy bits. I would imagine 9 times out of 10 you could get a five man squad out of the Raider legally.

I would suggest in your specific instance that the Raider has a unit of Reavers tagging along. Advance the Raider in turn one, with the Reavers sitting right on the back of the Raider. Even if they engage both units, the Reavers can fall back and still shoot and that will leave a space to disembark the cargo. Starting to sound like a lot of points just to get a charge off though.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 14:38

I have been thinking over this debate...it was one of the first things I started to ask myself when thinking of units to choose and tactics.

My first impression was that I move up the Raider on turn 1. On turn two I disembark the troops and charge the target with the Raider (soaking up overwatch). If I am lucky with the dice then the troops make the charge as well. Otherwise they are sitting ducks for another round.
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 16:01

Same issues again. Sitting ducks = dead ducks. Even taking (expensive) Reavers as support is pretty risky, as they can easily be shot with just a 4+ save and then the enemy can just assault anything else they want.

I dunno. Just doesn't sound or even seem slightly reliable against any opposition with any skill.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 18:44

Well, DE i feel best played with Shooting and Melee, turn 1-3 alls hooting, turn 3-6 some key melee fights.

Some turn 1-2 charges can be good (ML's SM in cover for a 2+ save outside of blaster range due to worried that raiders/venoms will die), or to throw a 120pt unit into killing a key character, etc...

Even with my Harlequins i normally dont turn 1 charge many times not even turn 2 charge, i shoot for a bit.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 22:56

This sounds good, can you tell me what 120 point CC unit we have that can kill a key character though??
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:02

Possibly the solitaire?
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Archon_91
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:02

Incubi would be a nice choice there I think ... Possibly even Mandrake's
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Actually getting our troops into combat   Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:10

Solitaire can easily, I just killed some venomthropes from Nids (-1 to hit is important bubble to get rid of). For less than 120pts he is one of my favorite characters now.

And as what @Archon_91 said, Mandrakes 9" is close enough many times and any good Melee unit that can get into melee turn 2 would work.

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