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Commorraghian
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PostSubject: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 04:06

Hey all!

I am getting back into the hobby after a long absence and I am working on putting together a mid-size army (1000 pts).  I have put together a few different possible lists based around the same units, but I cannot make up my mind about which list I want to use.

What do you all think?

List#1
*venom + 2xsc
archon + blaster + agoniser+ pgl
*venom + 2xsc
archon + blaster + agoniser+ pgl

*raider + dl
5 warriors +blaster +agoniser +pgl
x5 wyches + agoniser + blast pistol + wyche weapon

*raider + dl
5 warriors +blaster +agoniser +pgl

*5 hellions +pgl

*ravager + 3xdl
total=993

List#2
*venom + 2xsc
archon + blaster + agoniser+ pgl
*venom + 2xsc
archon + blaster + agoniser+ pgl

*raider + dl
5 warriors +blaster +agoniser +pgl
5 warriors +blaster +agoniser +pgl
*raider + dl
5 warriors +blaster +agoniser +pgl
5 warriors +blaster +agoniser +pgl

*raider + dl
5 incubi
total=1003

List#3
*venom + 2xsc
5 warriors +blaster
*venom + 2xsc
5 warriors +blaster

*raider + dl
10 warriors + blaster + dl

*raider + dl
5 incubi
Archon + blaster + agoniser+ pgl

*5 hellions + pgl

*3 reavers + blaster + grav talon + caltrops
total=996

Thanks again for any suggestions!
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Endstation
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Location : Dortmund

PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 09:45

Disclaimer: I haven't played 8th yet. Looking forward this weekend. But some general hints I have learned so far:

Look at your units and ask yourself, what you will do with this specific unit on the battlefield?
Example:
5 Warriors with blaster, Agonizer, PGL in a Raider with Dark Lance. What are the intended to do, what can they do?

The Raider gives solid shots with a high-Str, high-AP, high-damage weapon. It will use the full reach, best staying out of the 24" range from enemy troops that could hurt it, fiering on vehicles, transports and other heavy stuff. What will the warriors do in this time? They have maybe targets for their splinter rifle. But do you have a worthy target for your blaster? Or do they disembark? They have only 3 fast-dying bodies after you have decide: do. I loose the blaster or the Pgl+ agonizer? Better they stay inside the Raider. But then: do they need an agonizer?
agonizer: What kind of enemy unit do 5 Kabalite warriors willingly attack in close combat? Do you want to charge someone? If no: why equip them for CC. It is only a few points but it sums up I think.
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Commorraghian
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 14:12

Good points. I struggled with these same ideas.

My problem with arming squads in the raiders is that Warriors only have two weapons that match the long range of the raider (splinter cannons and dark lances) and the only way to arm them with those weapons is to take 10 warriors. This seems really inefficient. Why take a 10 man squad for only 1 weapon?

Then, if you decide to get in closer with the 10 warriors, close combat becomes more of a possibility (hence the agonisers) and it makes sense to take MSU's in the raiders to maximize the close combat benefits the sybarites can offer. I guess I could rely on the ability of the raider to leave combat and shoot, but as I read the rules, if a raider falls back, the squad inside can't shoot even if the raider can.

Ultimately, this is why I liked the idea of the agoniser, pgl, blaster Warrior squad parred up with a close combat squad in the raider.

How would you equip your raider squads?
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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 16:09

Why are you taking Troops? Just dump them. Our Fast Attack, Heavies and Elites are so much better.
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:06

I guess for command points.

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Hellstrom
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:25

Totally not worth it imo. I'd like to be proved wrong though Smile
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PFI
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 17:47

I just want to say warriors are just really cheap and good. There is a point to taking troops as you need screens and numbers of bodies for objective taking. Warriors are just dumbly cheap and wracks are also really good. When you think what's so great about a warrior, 70 points for 10 poison max range or 20 poison at half you are looking at the cheapest source of poison in the codex. I want to point out that splinter cannons have there shooting reduced at max because they don't want dark eldar to be the shoot and kite army it was with venoms in 7th and 5th. This edition is really geared towards the first couple turns seeing more combat and close ranges then ever. Make use of warriors in ten man on foot
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Commorraghian
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PostSubject: Re: 1000 pt Army Variants   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:45

I was thinking that warriors had value for two reasons:

1)Command Points
I am not sure exactly how to value these and it'll take a while for me to figure out an objective measure, but with DE troops being cheap, potentially having a low model count (we can just stuff them on a raider with other better things), and not being entirely useless: the cost of going from a patrol detachment to a battallion detachment is pretty minimal.

2) Value
I don't think Warriors make much sense as a heavy weapons platform. The 70 point tax of getting 10 warriors is just not worth it. We can get a venom, trueborn, and scourges all for less/equal points but with better heavy weapon options.
BUT, I think they offer a reasonable value for special weapons and syabrite wargear. The value isn't quite as good as trueborn, since you can get 4 special weapons with 5 models rather than just 1, but to maximize trueborn value you need small squads with high special weapon counts and that is scary with such a weak unit.

Application:
I really like the idea of sticking a warrior squad with a blaster in a raider with a melee squad. It gives the raider some value after it has dropped off the melee squad, counts towards command points, and is not very expensive. Adding the agoniser and pgl are points dependent, but can add some more versatality to the squad.
It is true that a 5 man trueborn squad could bring more firepower, either with blasters or heavy weapons, but I think that puts too many points into a single raider. Raiders are tougher, but they still aren't that tough, so I want my points spread evenly and not bunched up in one relatively vulnerable target.
However, the more I think about it, the more it seems like sticking a warrior squad in a venom is a waste. A small warrior squad isn't good enough to warrant its own transport. Why not put scourges, trueborn, or assault units in the venom?
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