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 Mixed Squads in Raiders

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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:27

Hey? What do you think of taking multiple raiders with shooty and stabby squads? Which units should that be? It kinda negates need for CC transport rush forward,and keep those CC squads in the sleeve.

Do CC squads even need their own transport now?

Does screen with units still work as cover? Will reavers/hellions in front of raiders give +1 to save?

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:39

For the model to get a cover save it needs to be more than 50% obscured with the exception of area terrain for infantry I believe.

It's an interesting idea and it definitely mitigates the cost of our transports somewhat if you can double up on the squads they can carry. Even just grouping Kabalites and Wyches together probably isn't a bad shout, because it gives you anti infantry fire to soften targets for the Wyches to try to tie down.

My only issue is that this is still a game about claiming objectives and the fact that you need more models than your opponent on an objective makes me want to turn to larger squads. Models in vehicles also don't count as scoring, which means to score those contested objectives you need to be disembarking, which IMO is a lot less ideal with a 5 man squad than a 10 man squad.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:54

What is a difference between having 2 5-man squads on an objective and having 1 10-man squad there?
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:59

I don't really understand the belief that a 10man squad is more survivable.

2 squads will require the same number of shots but requires the enemy splitfire.

10 man squads are also much more susceptible to morale.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 14:23

We become immune to moral via PFP on turn 4 so you might want to pick squads that will still exist by turn 4.

Yes 10 shots on a 10 man squad is no more survivable than 10 shots on two 5 man squads. I agree.

But that's just against shooting where the enemy can choose to split fire.

In close combat where it is most often 1 unit vs 1 unit then higher numbers will make you more survivable.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 14:44

If you interlace your 2 squads, the ennemy won't be able to assault 1 without assaulting the other.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 14:52

There isn't a difference between having 1 unit of 10 vs 2 units of 5. Just that if you're mixing and matching different squads they're likely to have slightly different battlefield roles. Mixing squads may be the way to go though considering morale though.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 15:07

Two squads taking damage means rolling for morale twice.  There is the risk...and it could go either way.

1 squad could roll good/bad/average.

2 squads could both roll good/bad/average.

For combat squads there is no guarantee that both 5 man units make the charge so for me larger squad sizes for combat units are more survivable.

10 Wyches in combat are more survivable than 5 in and 5 out.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 17:47

Incubi and Trueborn are probably best in squads of 5, so it's well worth throwing a unit of Kabalites or Wyches with them in a Raider for support. Wyches give you a squad that can charge and pin down infantry that might try to assault your better unit whilst Kabalites could give you an extra blaster to work with Blasterborn, or just provide some firepower for the Incubi before they charge. As for Kabalites/Wyches themselves (and including Wracks in this) I don't think there's an actual right answer as to whether MSU or full squads are better. It'll depend on your list and your strategy. Squads of 10 are more vulnerable to battleshock - a unit that takes 4 wounds in shooting can potentially lose a further 3 models to battleshock if the roll is bad, which for a 10-man squad means 7 casualties, whilst for a 5-man squad it just means no more squad. Having 3 guys left in a squad may seem better than having no squad, but if you had 2 MSU squads you'd still have 2 more models on the table than the 10-man squad. However, with the larger squad you could use more efficiently use command points to negate that poor battleshock roll, which you cannot do efficiently on MSU squads. Up to you to determine which is more advantageous to you.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 18:31

For sure both versions has there pros and cons but one thing to note is that 10man can break and have a(some) models flee easier turns 2-3.

Also for many players larger groups are scarier, so you need to keep that in mind as well.

Honestly in 8th ed it really doesnt matter as much for shooting units, after playing some 10mans and some 5mans.

About Wychs 10 vs 5, 1 in combat 5 out, well that depends if that 10man can get into combat, being a 10man unit might pose more threat and take more fire.

Its going to come down to what you like.

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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 18:43

with 2 5-wych squad, you can take 2 blast pistol.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 20:19

dumpeal wrote:
with 2 5-wych squad, you can take 2 blast pistol.

I like this.

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 21:11

amishprn86 wrote:
dumpeal wrote:
with 2 5-wych squad, you can take 2 blast pistol.

I like this.

and two agonisers and pgls
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Thu Jun 08 2017, 22:29

dumpeal wrote:
with 2 5-wych squad, you can take 2 blast pistol.

The only caveat is the different drugs and potentially more difficult to track both squads, but yeah, doubling up on key performers like Agonizers and BPs are nice.

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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 08:30

Ah but those different drugs will actually be an advantage in some cases as well. Depending if you end up with 4-6 squads with drugs, 4 might be better so you have no bad drugs. But I like my wych cult models so I will usually end up between 6-10 wych units in 2k in wych case 10 is better since the bad drugs will have a smaller unit to be wasted on.

If you have a few units of wyches, hellions a succubus and some reavers you will reach those 6 squads easy no matter if you have units of 10 or 5 wyches.
You will have to waste your poor drugs on 5 man squads instead of 10 man squads, and you will reach more then 6 squads easy thus you can take 4 times your delicious favorite drugs.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 12:05

Another thing is that helps you when you have to fill 3 Troops whithout spending too many points in trasport.
You can put 2 of them into 1 Raider, and the third into a Venom, or even into a secondo Raider with 5 Incubi (if you are listing them already).

You can simply get 2x5 Kabal with 2 Sybarite and 2 Blasters into a Raider, and you have already a better platform for shooting AND filled 2 Troops. That sounds nice!


PS: try to think about 2x5 Trueborns with 2x2DL into a Raider. seems nice too.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 14:15

I'm not sure 2X5 kabalites with blaster are better than 1X10 kabalites with dark lance. Blasters took a serious hit this edition.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 14:23

@ dumpeal depends on what you want.

2 Blasters is a fraction more damage than the dark lance (2d3 >d6 and no to hit penalty for moving and you can actually advance and shoot)
But the dark lance has the range.
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:34

For me Blasters are just as good, DL are for long range were blasters are for short range, warriors are to me mid-short range so i feel they are better on warriors over DL's

I would rather do DL's on Trueborns and keep them at far if you are going to place DL's on infantry. You get 2 now and can be place in a raider for a 3rd.

just my .02c

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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 18:43

dumpeal wrote:
I'm not sure 2X5 kabalites with blaster are better than 1X10 kabalites with dark lance. Blasters took a serious hit this edition.

Being able to threaten without BS penalty is pretty huge.

So in a Venom for example, you can move 16+18 and threaten 34" with full BS and 4x Blasters. This is worth having in combination with Dark Lances generally in your army.

You want to layer your firepower, so have long-range, medium and short-ranged threats (so for 36/24/12" range bands). You want your threat and intensity of fire to increase as you and your enemy close the gaps, so Blasters are ALWAYS a good thing.

Some older articles to help:
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-some-random-helpful-tips-1.html
http://lkhero.blogspot.com/2014/10/de-tactical-battle-report-1.html

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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 20:22

Don't forget about deployment. With two 5 man squads you have the flexibility to either put both into a transport (turning 3 units into 1) or split them up and deploy 3 units.

That way you can either push to complete deployment first (and go first), or wait out your opponent to see how they deploy and counter-deploy to mitigate their big-bad-centerpiece.
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dumpeal
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 20:55

I'd take the blast pistol over the blaster anytime. 18 inches vs 6 inches won't save you from any danger and the ability to shoot during the assault simply beat the blaster range.

*edit* For a unit inside a raider, of course *edit*
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fisheyes
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 22:48

I can see the Blaster getting use for footslogging kabalites, but not so much for gunboats.

Just too much points for only D3 damage.
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HERO
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 23:23

fisheyes wrote:
I can see the Blaster getting use for footslogging kabalites, but not so much for gunboats.

Just too much points for only D3 damage.

Can you please explain the logic behind "only D3 damage" and not S8 AP-4, 18" range Assault?

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Mixed Squads in Raiders   Fri Jun 09 2017, 23:36

I know some players already hating on D3 damage b.c "its not as good as D6" but you also are paying more points for that D6.

We still have plenty of Dark lances on other things, if you need more DL's get a Ravager.

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