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 What am I missing?

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 11:48

Hi All

I just wanted to ask for some advice on what I might be missing in the army list I have available to me. I have only recently started to build the army and so it may come across as very basic to some of you. When I do get the army painted I expect to be playing smaller size games to start with.

1 Archon
1 Haemonculous

20 Kabalites
5 Wracks

5 Scourge
6 Reavers

3 Raiders
2 Venoms

I am thinking about expanding the Wracks to a 10 man unit as well as having either a ravager or a talos. I would love some Incubi but I don't want the finecast models...I am praying that GW release some plastic Incubi.

Any and all advice is welcome.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 12:27

Definitely Ravagers. Maybe a unit to pair the Archon with for close combat, as of right now I'm not sure what this would be and in small games I feel like he's probably killy enough by himself. If you're really put off by fine cast, see if you can pick up some metal Incubi on ebay or something. They seem fairly good this edition, but I haven't tried them yet personally. After Ravagers I'd make sure to pick up another 10 to 20 Kabalites going forward. 10 Wyches probably isn't a terrible shout either, but I'd put Ravagers and warriors ahead of these.

You could run a list like this in small games, and if you're happy picking up 2 Ravagers it will be a good jumping off point for moving towards bigger games where you will almost certainly be calling on them a lot.

Patrol detachment
HQ

Archon
-Agoniser
-PGL
-Blaster
-Venom
-Second cannon
171

Troops
10 Kabalites
-Blaster
Raider
-Dark lance
200
5 Kabalites
-Blaster
-Venom
-second cannon
145
5 Kabalites
-Blaster
-Raider
-Dark lance
165

Heavy support
X2 Ravager
-Triple lance
310
Total: 991
You could use the the remaining points to stick Agoniser on two of the Kabalite squads. As far as I'm concerned, it gives you a fairly balanced list that will have a good bit of daka, enough lances to break open transports and some kind of assault unit in the Archon.

The alternative is to drop the Archon's Venom and move him in to the Raider. It would mean you'd have 9 Kabalites and Archon in 1 and 6 Kabalites in the other. With that you save 95 points on the Venom which would mean you could bring a squad of Scourges with 1 Dark lance? This would he good because it kind of makes up for some of the daka lost in the venom and also puts bodies on the board for objectives.

So going forward:
1. Ravagers
2. More warriors
3. Possibly 10 Wyches (can be good, can be completely worthless)
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:01

Doesn't a Patrol Detachment need two HQ choices?

I thought Ravagers would crop up...and I understand why. For some reason I am just not sold on them as yet but I can imagine that changing after playing some games. I worry that a Ravager is a unit that will attract a lot attention...but I also worry that Scourges are an easier target.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:24

The requirements for a patrol is only 1 HQ 1 troop. They cap you at 2 HQ max, 3 Troops max and 2 of everything else.

The Ravager is still one of the best units in the book. For ranged anti tank we have nothing better. This is why I have two in both the lists I mentioned above and also to mitigate your fears of having a big red target on your paper plane all game long, because now they have to do that to two of them! In 2k lists I would expect to see a minimum of two if the list has a lot of other anti tank, if not then three. Vehicles are also quite a bit tougher in this edition. So not only are your Ravagers going to stick around a bit longer (especially at 1000 pts) you also need need need to put out a solid amount of anti tank.

Scourges are an easy target. That's no question really. The benefit is they put 5 models on an objective with a 14" movement and start at 70 pts a unit.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:57

I prefer the idea of trueborn with 2 lances 2 blasters in a raider.

Stationary it's the same shots. Mobile it hits less but also adds 2 blasters (giving it the ability to fire after advancing).

Admittedly I'm sure this is more expensive but as my list needed raiders to carry other units the cost is mitigated because otherwise I would be buying transports and ravager.

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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:58

What are the mechanics now for troops firing from open top transports in relation to the Dark Lance?

So lets say you have 10 Kabs with a Dark Lance riding in a Raider. If you move then then there is a -1 to hit pen for heavy weapons. Does this still exist if you are on board a flying transport? You can only fire assault weapons if you advance. Does this mean that a heavy weapon on board a flying transport can no longer fire?
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 14:03

LOL you have just beat me to it.

So my thoughts were that a splinter cannon is not the auto pick it used to be for a Kabalite squad. The dark lance will now be considered more often than before.

3 Raiders carrying troops with Dark Lances could be a viable option...and forget the cost because we would always add 1 or 2 heavy/special weapons to a squad.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 14:19

The Trueborn squad you're talking about cost 240 pts. In comparison to a triple lance Ravager this is 85 points more. Now, whilst you get the bonus of having 5 men to place on objectives, you never want to be disembarking with this squad because of how expensive these weapons are. They will ride and die with that transport until turn 5 or 6, as far as I can see. But it does give you the option. At 18" they do get an extra 2 lance shots which is nice, but these lance shots are essentially 40 points a pop and getting in to range for these guys to shoot means both of the Dark lance trueborn are shooting at -1 to hit if you moved their this turn. You can also transport another 5 man squad in here which is again nice, but for an extra 10 points you could have bought a Venom for the squad and a Ravager. I think there's definitely a place to mix and match units in vehicles but I don't think this is one of them.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 15:00

I wouldn't consider 4 blasters or two blasters two lances in a 5 man Trueborn squad.
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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 15:23

I was just replying to the red king about the unit he suggested. If you dropped the Ravagers, you could buy a 10 man Raider squad with dark lance and Blaster, upgrade the other 10 man squad with a dark lance and change the Venom to a Raider with a dark lance. I think you only lose 1 lance out of that but you gain a few more Troops. Only issue is it soesnt fit in to the patrol detachment.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 19:12

Buying a venom for the trueborn and a ravager still leaves me with 5 other models that need a transport. So if I'm splitting the cost of the transport (by not having to buy a second one for the other unit) I consider it a good deal.

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Trueborn44
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 19:59

The point I'm making is to skip the Trueborn entirely. I can see them maybe as an add on after the Ravager, but not before it. Instead of buying the Trueborn squad and the Raider, letting you transport another 5 models, just buy a Ravager and a Venom to transport the other unit. That way you're still getting a good amount of lances that are always firing at full ballistic skill and the unit that you would have had in the Raider alongside the Trueborn is now free to act independently and you also get a Venom on top of that. For the sake of 10 points I'd much rather have two separate vehicles.
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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Thu Jun 08 2017, 20:12

Ahhh I misread your point entirely then. And I can see what you're saying. I'll fiddle with the list and see if I can't find a way to happily drop 20 points.

I think I dismissed the ravager off hand due to its performance in the last edition.

Considering my intention to run the trueborn as ynnari and my list includes yvraine as well to increase my chances of soulbursting do you still think the ravager is the better choice?

Well after fiddling with the list I decided to keep the trueborn. It's point inefficient on a per dark lance basis and 2 venom are considerably tougher than 10 trueborn, but I was swayed by layered defense and the overall affect on the list.

In the end I was losing 4 blasters and gaining 4 splinter cannons, which irked me, but the convincing factor for me was the fact that killing or crippling a ravager is about as easy as killing or crippling a raider. However if my raider dies the occupants can jump out (and soulburst perhaps) and I've lost a single lance. If a ravager is even crippled I've effectively lost 3 lances.

I'll consider the changes if I find myself in need of more splinter cannons but I think the "Russian doll" defense is worth the inefficiency in points.
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Dark Elf Dave
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Fri Jun 09 2017, 11:21

I have been looking over the points and yes a Ravager does make sense.

They cost the same as a Raider and they have access to cheaper Lances because you avoid the troops tax.

So I was first thinking 3 Raiders carrying troops with Lances but the cost gets very high.

Better to include one Ravager per 1000 points perhaps.
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nerdelemental
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PostSubject: Re: What am I missing?   Fri Jun 09 2017, 12:58

Agreed with everything so far. I'm of the opinion that 8th is actually about as balanced as promised (only a few games under my belt but I'm extremely optimistic). You cannot really go wrong with anything. It'll find a purpose. For what you've got already, it looks very shooty focused which is fine. Get 1-3 Ravagers for additional support there. I used 3 in all of my games so far and in seventh would add 1, sometimes two mostly as an afterthought.
I think you should get a Succubus. She's been my go-to, MVP of each of my games so far which has surprised me each time. I load her with a blast pistol and the melee stuff. I intend to run her with the Wyches (squad of 9 and she rides in a Raider with them to combat) but then she hops away to bog down whatever is messing with me. Honestly, I throw her at vehicles thinking she'll quickly die and she's a menace!
Get a Talos.
When we *DO* get resculpts you should have access to Grotesques and I predict they'll be some hot balls.
I'd get the Ynnari box set, too. Or, I think we MUST address psychic in this edition.
I think we all want some reliable melee: Grotesque, Incubi (agree with metal off ebay, proxy, or hope for rescultps in plastic soon), Mandrakes. Wyches aren't as bonkers but they're available, look cool, and are cheap.
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