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 An opinion on 8th (having played it)

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Squidmaster
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PostSubject: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 11:16

Last night I had my first game of 8th edition, and I thought I'd share some thoughts.

Up to now, I've been quite optimistic on the system.
My major complaint is that I wanted the game to be more original, and not just a copy of AoS. I wanted GW to be a bit more original, and not just offer two different settings under one game system.

Putting that aside, I've played the game now, and will be attempting to put that niggle aside and just enjoy the game.
And I did enjoy the game.

I'll say first off that I didn't use the Dark Eldar for this game. I've got my vehicles on the table for repairs, so I thought I'd break out the Deathwatch again (also thinking that Marines would be an easier first game to learn with).

The system works decently and cohesively, although as with most game systems the rules are not 100% clear in some cases. One example being a Lash Whip on my opponents Hive Tyrant (yes, Tyranids).
If the Tyrant is killed, it still gets to fight (ouch) before being removed. But you leave it in play, and activate as normal. Meaning that after killing it, any unit that could consoloate or pile in towards the nearest enemy model could in fact be moving towards a model which is already dead. Maybe thats intentional, but it seemed........tricky.

I quite like that monsters and vehicles now degrade as they take damage. Its both thematic and works decently in-game.
One bugbear I'll throw at vehicles though is their uselessness in combat. I like that they can charge and soak up Overwatch (which I used to good effect), but only hitting on a 6+ just doesn't ring to make sense to me. A massive wheeled brick bearing down on a person should have a much easier chance of hitting something than simply a 6+.

I think Psychic works well, but leaves a massive problem in denying. If you have few Psykers against many (my one Librarian against Tyranids) denying is extremely difficult. And when mutliple Smites are being thrown down to cause Mortal Wounds, it becomes very hard to take those hits with no defence. For armies that lack any Psychic (Dark Eldar, Necrons, Tau..........sorry, Drukhari, Necrontyr and T'au) that is going to be a major problem I think. Not sure I agree that only Psykers should be able to deny psychic powers.

I guess the only problem I came across, probably because this was a Tyranid opponent, was the whole "all chargers fight first" thing. That was PAINFUL. WHen that many Carnifexes and Genestealers charged, they really wiped through me. Probably very situational, and something I'll get used to as I play more games, but it seems really painful if you play against a fast, or heavily Deep-Striking combat army. I suspect Genestealer Cults are going to be strong.

Past that, combat worked well in that it hasn't really changed. The alternating fighting units worked decently I think. No complaints there.
The same was shooting. I had a teary moment when I reached into my dice bag and came across a Scatter Die, now lost to history, and didn't know what to do with it, but I think the new system works. I found some weapons improved (Meltaguns) and some degraded (Boltguns), but thats just a new norm to get used to.

Characters I like how they work now, as it makes far more sense for a character to be able to buff any unit around them rather than just one he decides to step in and take charge of, though you have to be very careful with them when faced with charges who may reach them.......


Thats about it for my thoughts on my first game.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 15:09

Additional:

I really hate the rules for moving up and down buildings.

Namely that only Infantry can, and all other type of unit are limited to the ground floor.

What this means is that a Ravenwing army for example, or pure Saim-Hann, can never contest an Objective Marker which has been placed on a high level of a building (more than 3" from the ground).

That is awful, and sucks character from army lists which HAVE to consider this.
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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 15:20

Does it suck really? Can't they focus on other things? Isn't that like saying that if you focus on melee it is unfair you can get shot at? Surely the mobility is more than compensating for this issue.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 18:52

Not at all, its nothing like that.
What I'm saying is that it sucks that certain themed armies which have always had a character of their would be heavily penalised by this rule.
To use Ravenwing as an example, that is a highly thematic army that has to built a certain way to stay thematically true. There are no Infantry in the Ravenwing.
The same could be said of White Scars.
But taking a Ravenwing force would put you at a great disadvantage is missions which only rely on Objective Markers if your opponent puts their markers too high to be reached.

And lets not also forget that the second player chooses both Deployment type and edge.
So Ravenwing can go first, put down their marker, then the opponent not only chooses the side but also the shape of the deployment zone to secure themselves the best place to put Markers out of reach of non-Infantry.




Don't get me wrong, I like the new rules.

Just not this particular rule.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 19:44

I understood that, but... well... bikes shouldnt go upstairs... :-D I get what you mean, but I guess I would never consider this an issue. Just a tax for playing bike army. There are many taxes to any themed list. And this is just one of them and one that seems perfectly logical to me. :-D Infantry does have some advantages to bikes and this representation is actually a very nice one. I would even say thematic. :-)
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 20:21

Fluff wise the Ravenwing is a highly specialized formation, being specialized means that there are inherent weaknesses which the new rules place on them. My understanding of the Ravenwing was a role of hunter killers not as a force for securing and holding battlefield objectives. If we are talking about a thematic deployment of an army and the rules reflect the thematic aspects of it I don't really see the issue. Ruins don't usually have ramps or big enough stairs to allow for a unit of bikes to get up on them, isn't it anti-thematic to fly up to the top of a building with no access for them?

Yes it makes the game harder on you for doing this as the choice of units has a detrimental effect on you and you can't just play as you want, you have to take the good with the bad (mobility and toughness in exchange for securing objectives on roof tops).

The Dark Angles miscalculated by sending a Ravenwing into an a combat zone that it wasn't suited to fight in.

Regardless, thanks for sharing your thoughts on your experience.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sat Jun 10 2017, 01:50

Check the ruins rules again - it's only monsters, vehicles and bikes without fly that can't end their move above the ground floor

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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:12

Yeah, I was wrong about Saim-Hann. Noticed that.

I just think its one HELL of a tax on Ravenwing and White Scars.
Its forces Infantry on armies that want to be able to hold Objecrives (or capture the Relic).
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sat Jun 10 2017, 12:40

Both the ravenwing and whitescars have access to fantastic vehicles with FLY who can end their move on those objectives that might be above ground level.

There is also nothing about charging up levels for anything - just finishing their move - so black knights can't end their move anywhere but on the ground but can still charge enemies up higher

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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sat Jun 10 2017, 17:38

Is part of your complaint about the Ravenwing and White Scars is that you won't have the numbers to hold the objectives as it is number based now? I guess you will need to do your best to blast as many of the enemy off of the objective marker as possible so that your Land Speeders can claim the objective, but would not that be a problem for your bikes as well even if you could ride up vertical walls to park on roofs against infantry based armies?
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sun Jun 11 2017, 11:43

Hmm.
The Charge thing is a good point.


EDIT: It has now been argued to me that a Charge Move is still a Move, so the Charge thing wouldn't work. ugh.


I guess my complaint is that it makes bike armies, which from my experience have been fairly common, much less viable. And I thought the whole idea was that all current armies would still work. It seems a heavy imbalance against the standard, non-Jet biker army.
I'd be perfectly happy if there were a rule limited Objective Markers to lower levels of terrain that Bikes and other such can access, but now there is a way to deploy Markers in such a way that opponent units can't get to at all.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sun Jun 11 2017, 17:45

@Squidmaster wrote:

I'd be perfectly happy if there were a rule limited Objective Markers to lower levels of terrain that Bikes and other such can access, but now there is a way to deploy Markers in such a way that opponent units can't get to at all.

Tournaments will probably rule this the same way they did in 7th edition: Objective markers are cylindrical, and have infinite height, so if you place one on any level of the ruin, the "cylinder" of the objective extended infinitely downward and upward so that anyone on any level of the ruin could contest the objective so long as they're within range of the "cylinder".

While this is slightly less "realistic" in some cases, from a gameplay perspective, this solves the problem you're encountering without having to change the way models interact with terrain. It's also more realistic in other cases, such as that of a wraithknight who is close enough to an objective to contest it, and has the objective at eye level right in front of it's face within arm's reach, but who is technically on the lower level.

You're right, people shouldn't be able to have entire armies that can never score objectives in terrain. I'd suggest you propose this house rule to your gaming group and let them know that this is how tournaments have been doing objectives for the last few years.

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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Sun Jun 11 2017, 18:27

For the ravenwings: get some rhinos, stuff em with infantry, paint some speed stripes on them to make them look fast (or glue some wings on them?), and run them behind the bikes as a ruin clearing strikeforce of doom. Problem solved.

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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Mon Jun 12 2017, 03:20

for the ravenwing give them bloody deathwing or literally any other company support(like they are meant to have) so they can go up stairs.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Mon Jun 12 2017, 10:48

Has the rules for attacking and collapsing buildings been taken out of the rules in 8th?
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Mon Jun 12 2017, 11:50

@Scrz wrote:
Has the rules for attacking and collapsing buildings been taken out of the rules in 8th?

Yes.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Mon Jun 12 2017, 12:03

@Squidmaster wrote:
@Scrz wrote:
Has the rules for attacking and collapsing buildings been taken out of the rules in 8th?

Yes.
there were rules for that?
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Mon Jun 12 2017, 23:40

@Squidmaster wrote:
@Scrz wrote:
Has the rules for attacking and collapsing buildings been taken out of the rules in 8th?

Yes.

They still have it. Under the advance rules. Page 256 details how bastions get hit and what happens to Infantry embarked in them - yes Infantry only.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Thu Jun 15 2017, 23:50

I understand your frustration at not being able to do the same as you always could before, but on the other hand, it never made that much sense in the first place, as others have pointed out. All bike armies get the extra toughness, wounds and speed to be able to take the fight to the enemy before they can jump on those harder to reach objectives - they can't hold them if they've already been run over Wink

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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Tue Jun 27 2017, 15:12

So, here's a question (that may require a FAQ).. when you charge something that is on say, the 2nd level of a ruin, where do you measure the 1" of distance? from base to base, or does it also measure from model to base? For example, if a unit is on the outer edge of the 2nd floor, can you charge it with a monster that reaches up to chest height with the 2nd floor, since the model itself will be within 1" from the models that it is charging?
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Wed Jun 28 2017, 10:52

Its base to base.
Meaning a Wraithking which is taller than the piece of terrain can not charge things that are on its chest level.
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PostSubject: Re: An opinion on 8th (having played it)   Wed Jun 28 2017, 13:54

@Squidmaster wrote:
Its base to base.
Meaning a Wraithking which is taller than the piece of terrain can not charge things that are on its chest level.

Is there a rules passage that specifically states this (I don't have the rules with me at work)? I definitely saw one battle report video where a knight was in cc wth an archon that was standing on top of a small building. Granted, they could have been playing this incorrectly, but I'm wondering how much the letter of the rule is open to interpretation and how badly it will require FAQing.
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