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 Rule of thumb (for list building)

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wormfromhell
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PostSubject: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:07

so....

Should we keep all units below a certain point value for optimal target saturation? I think this value should be 200-150 points. transports and their passengers are counted as 2 units. The only exceptions I can think of are the void raven, tantalus, and (fingers crossed) the dias of destruction.

following these rules we should have at least 10-13 units in a 2000 point list, which should give the enemy plenty to think about. remember the saying by many an archon: "don't put all of your spikey, extra-fragile brand eggs in one cardboard basket."
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 10:44

Keeping units below that level should be easy. I've done a quick calculation and a Kabalite or witch unit in a Venom is about 150 points combined!

So go full MSU and fill the elite slots with lone beast masters and the fast attack with beasts.
Now: how to fill the heavy support slots cheaply?

Triple Lance Ravager? Not cheap but useful.

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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 11:02

By this calculation my 2000 pt list has 18 units + 2 HQs. Cool
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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 11:11

5 Kabalite Warriors - I can't say points
Phantasm Grenade Launcher - no
Blaster - forget it
Blast pistol - won't tell
Agoniser - that neither
Sum: roughly 100 points

Venom with double Splinter Cannon - one Melter bomb below 100 points

Raider with Lance: 25 Melter bombs

So a fully kitted squad in a Venom is roughly 200 points
Two fully kitted squads in a Raider are 300+a hand full of Melter bombs

And there is plenty of room to save some points.
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|Meavar
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:14

You might wish to recalculate your kabalites, for when I calculate them they are a lot cheaper, as in around 6 melta bombs cheaper.
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Scrz
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:41

One thing that could be wise to consider is that the player that finish deploying first automatically gets first turn (unless seized).
If you want to alpha strike, you would want to make a list with as few deployment "drops" as possible.
OR
If you are planning to have many units in reserves for a beta strike, you want to bring many units since you must have 50%+ on the table turn 1.

Also kill points is still a thing in certain missions.
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Massaen
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 12:43

I used to work on 130 points per unit MAX... under 7th at least... and at least 1 dark light shot per 80 points.

With the new changes the unit costs including the transport are likely to be around 150-160 per unit while dark light will likely be 1 per 100ish points

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:43

Is this really a thing in 8th? I do not believe that we will have a "rule of thumb" now. There will be several viable ways to play with various approaches to number of units and their sizes IMO.
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Cerve
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 13:47

I don't think that DE must run MSU again. There's a lot of things for us that push in the opposite direction.
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Demantiae
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 14:11

I think in this edition redundancy of units will be critical as stuff dies fast. You need a good chunk of anti-tank weaponry, setting yourself a benchmark (1 per 100pts as mentioned above) is a good position to take. I think you have to make a choice though - go big units and try for that first turn, or screw it and go MSU with as much reserves as you can afford to take. Going in-between those extremes will probably handicap you. If you can get first turn DE will be a great Alpha force if your dice roll well. But they'll also be a great Beta force too with good reserve options . In kill points you're going to have to go MSU reserves heavy and hope to take out as much as possible with your Beta strike to give you that critical mass of impact that your opponent can't recover from. Otherwise you'll lose against anything that isn't using cheaper and more spammy units than you.

But large squads will be a thing now, in the right circumstance.

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aurynn
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 16:39

Yea well but we can do deployment shenanigans. Deploying a Raider with 2x 5-man squad inside can easily be 300pts at deploy, but 100pts each separated. We will never be as good as CHSM with 5 deployed units and 5 in reserves, but we can still snatch initiative with this approach from others.
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Ikol
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 17:09

...

Bring 5 units of DL Scourges.

Bring 1 Archon (replace Huskblade with Agoniser)

Bring 2 units of Kabalite Warriors.

Give the two Warrior Squads a Raider each.

5 units on the board, 5 in reserves.

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CptMetal
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Wed Jun 07 2017, 17:32

@|Meavar wrote:
You might wish to recalculate your kabalites, for when I calculate them they are a lot cheaper, as in around 6 melta bombs cheaper.
Damn. You´re right. I priced them with 10 dudes not 5 in mind. My bad!

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 05:58

I dont go by points limit per squad, i go by usefulness + what weapons they are + survivablity.
To me Scourges with 4 DL's are not worth it, but a Ravager is.
To me Agonisers and Blast Pistols on all Syberites are worth it.
To be the VoidRaver is worth it, the Razorwing is not.

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sekac
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 07:32

I will continue running MSU and dial it back as necessary if I'm struggling. MSU is what I know and love, but 8th edition has some pretty direct counters to it. I'm curious to see how it all shakes out.
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Painjunky
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 08:45

@amishprn86 wrote:
I dont go by points limit per squad, i go by usefulness + what weapons they are + survivablity.
To me Scourges with 4 DL's are not worth it, but a Ravager is.
To me Agonisers and Blast Pistols on all Syberites are worth it.
To be the VoidRaver is worth it, the Razorwing is not.

Do have any tips for using Agonisers and Blast Pistols on all Sybarites?

I'm thinking of doing the same or at least with the Agos as CC seems inevitable.
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Azdrubael
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:01

MSU works on damage overspill, when one unit pour too much shooting into another causing it to waste potential in a game of finite turns. If there is universal Split Fire, MSU will only work in melee.

If guardsmen blob can divide fire between 2 or 3 targets in front of it, what is the point of MSU?
Think we need to think in how much transport wounds we have and how well our troops inside are protected. We might as well start to bring more raiders, more wounds, larger capacity.

I quite like idea of mixed squads in raiders. Shooty and stabby.

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The Red King
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 13:52

Overspill still exists with spitfire because the targets must be declared before firing. Giving your opponent the ability to over or underestimate and thus waste shots.

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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 18:07

@Painjunky wrote:
@amishprn86 wrote:
I dont go by points limit per squad, i go by usefulness + what weapons they are + survivablity.
To me Scourges with 4 DL's are not worth it, but a Ravager is.
To me Agonisers and Blast Pistols on all Syberites  are worth it.
To be the VoidRaver is worth it, the Razorwing is not.

Do have any tips for using Agonisers and Blast Pistols on all Sybarites?

I'm thinking of doing the same or at least with the Agos as CC seems inevitable.

Well i wound Poison isnt reliable enough now and if you do want to make it hurt you need to be within rapid fire range.

B.c many armies movement is MUCH larger, we want to be closer (we also want our good melee units to be as close as we can). They arent amazing killers with agoniser, but its still a -2ap on a 2+ hit person with 2 attacks you will get 1 kill in most likely. Killing one enemy for me is good enough for that low cost of the weapon.

The Blast Pistol i will put on ALL my units, just like my Harlequins will have 1 Fusion Pistol on ALL my units as well.

The 2 DE games and 3 Harlequins games i played i did this and over all those Blasters/Fusions has done extremely well.

My harlequins 1500pt game yesterday with 5 fusion guns was poping off wounds all ever against Daemon Princes's, Soul Grinders, Defilers, etc....

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yukondal
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 19:53

What was your entire list if you don't mind me asking. Blast pistols sound fun but they're not the backbone of an army in my virgin state of 8th edition. Your list must have been very close combat oriented, no?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 19:59

2 units of trueborns in 2 venoms, blasters, Agonsier, blaster pistol
2 units of warriors in raiders, SPlinter Cannon, blaster, blaster pistol, agonsier
Hellion units
Beast packs (Khymeras/Flocks)
Archon, blast pistol, agonsier, pgl

My larger games i add; Voidraven, mandrakes, talos's (Taloi? wtf is plural?!!?! fjbwerhgowefywvg)

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 20:26

What FoC were you using?
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amishprn86
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 20:31

Elite one, Vangguard?

I have:
1 HQ
2 Troops
4 Elites
1 fast
Added:
1 elite, 2 heavys

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CurstAlchemist
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PostSubject: Re: Rule of thumb (for list building)   Thu Jun 08 2017, 20:35

Thought it was Vanguard but wanted confirmation, thanks
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